GTE Speculation

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

No Corvette has a 5.5L either so by that regard isn't it illegal too?

It isn't, because it's a road car block that is sleeved down. Plus engine builders are allowed to remove forced induction from a road car engine base in order to adapt it to GTE specs.

[MitchZ06]

As I've posted here in the past I've always wondered why Porsche don't use the GT2 street car as the base for the GTE to make use of the twin turbo system it has to gain some torque.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

As I've posted here in the past I've always wondered why Porsche don't use the GT2 street car as the base for the GTE to make use of the twin turbo system it has to gain some torque.

I believe it has something to do with the turbo engine restrictor equvelancy formula It seems that since the 98'Gt1s era FIA strangled turbos, ACO adopted the same equivalency formula.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Did it ever race? I don't seem to recall (infact Ferrari pussied out of racing it because of Porsche and Mercedes...).

No Corvette has a 5.5L either so by that regard isn't it illegal too?

They chose to not race is as, Porsche's and Mercs had built homogenization specials, while the ferrari F50 gt1 was based on a production model ....

[busdegnao]

don't road gt2 and gt3rs share the same chassis? so the base is the same and there wouldn't be a lot of changings in bodywork. A turbo engine would be required a lower displacement with the old technical regulamentations, the torque gained from the turbo was balanced by the loss of torque because of lower displacement, then porsche has still bad dreams with the 911 GT1 engine harshly restricted because of turbo.
You're wrong about f50, ferrari folded the f50gt project because predicted that the future 911 GT1 was a race protype masked by GT using special homologation! ferrari and dallara didn't agree with this attitude and retired, this is the reason! mclaren istead decided to fold the f1 and entered the f1 gtr LT using special homologation too. we have some good corvette specialist but don't understimate the knowledge about ferrari and porsche of mine and other people, or "digging" capacity if you wish

[MitchZ06]

Originally Posted by arakis

Also on Corvettes, I have nothing but respect, but I do feel they need to stop whining to the ACO and start developing a car that wouldn't need BoP to be competitive

I disagree, and it doesn't need BoP to be competitive, it needs BoP to stop it destroying GTE.

For once this is actually where Ferrari and Corvette are similar, I'm yet to see Corvette or Ferrari openly whinge about the regulations...

[busdegnao]

corvette received a restrictor break too and a waiver for the rear wing. None can't be hide the fact that if in the past corvette was penalized, this year bop is more generous. To be honest the car received a weight penality of 15kg, but the 458 received that too and for now 0 waivers/helps.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

I disagree, and it doesn't need BoP to be competitive, it needs BoP to stop it destroying GTE.

For once this is actually where Ferrari and Corvette are similar, I'm yet to see Corvette or Ferrari openly whinge about the regulations...

I'm a big Corvette fan BUT I still don't like the unnecessary size of those air and fuel flow restrictors when I know how well they still did in 2010 without those (2009 too but they had the bigger engine to compensate it back then)... also they have cried about the BoP and needed regulation changes numerous times, just like every other marque on the grid

However, as I've said earlier, it's not their fault to ask for more, but ACO/IMSA/FIA's

[MitchZ06]

Yeah they're unnecessary but I'll take it happily, any advantage is good advantage!

What I meant sorry was that they don't whinge like Aston or Pescarolo whinges, I've heard all those comments from Godug and co mentioning "we need a bit more restrictor" or "a bit more aero" but nothing like the aforementioned whingers...

[Deleted]

Well Vantage is the grand daddy of all performance breaks atm so they hardly have anything to cry about... but I'm sure they think of something. It's predecessor had similar quantities too, although in much much smaller scale and in rarer cases

Not sure if I subscribe to that any advantage is good -phrase, of course it's great to see them winning but it would be nicer if it was all because of the car's pure performance and team/drivers, not because of special allowances from mommy

[MitchZ06]

Nothing to cry about in the past, remember the previous years of Aston in ACO competition?...

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Well Vantage is the grand daddy of all performance breaks atm so they hardly have anything to cry about... but I'm sure they think of something. It's predecessor had similar quantities too, although in much much smaller scale and in rarer cases

Not sure if I subscribe to that any advantage is good -phrase

Porkies are giving them a run for their money for that title

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Nothing to cry about in the past, remember the previous years of Aston in ACO competition?...

I meant currently... yes I remember the years when the old C6.R was filled with extra ballast and stuff in order to give mr Richard's machinery 'a fair chance to complete'

Also the petrol-diesel mess in LMP1 with the Lola-Aston but those tears were actually somewhat justified

[busdegnao]

in my opinion you didn't pick the right examples because the things are different: AMR, after the epic fail of amr-one decided to keep on with endurance programs introducing a new GTE car ran by their work team, is clear that ACO need to close an eye (maybe with AMR this year they have close 3 or 4 pairs of eyes) an give them some waiver to make them "happy" to remain as manufacter, thinking about the future (a luxury cars brand as AM is better to have it than lose it). Pescarolo situation is different too... you call it "go along with pescarolo whinges" i call it charity...

[arakis]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

I disagree, and it doesn't need BoP to be competitive, it needs BoP to stop it destroying GTE.

You seem not to understand the difference between the rulebook equvivelancy forumula, and the BoP...

(neither does ACO/FIA but that's another matter)

The Vettes were never in the history of their GTE challenge, been slowed down by BoP. They were however helped by BoP in different degrees over the years....sometimes helped less, sometimes helped more...

Fact is without BoP the 2012 widebody revision of the 'vette would be a much slower car then it is now, while without BoP the Ferrari would be a slightly faster car.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by arakis

Porkies are giving them a run for their money for that title

BMW close by... Evora would take that crown if the car wasn't such a pile of *** even with the gifts

[busdegnao]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I meant currently... yes I remember the years when the old C6.R was filled with extra ballast and stuff in order to give mr Richard's machinery 'a fair chance to complete'

Also the petrol-diesel mess in LMP1 with the Lola-Aston but those tears were actually somewhat justified

i don't remember well, maybe i am wrong, but until 2008-2009 corvette could choice between a lighter car (1100kg) with shorter restrictors and a heaiver car (1150kg) with larger restrictors. Lola aston was using a GT engine, so could use larger restrictors, that however were reduced in 2010.

[MitchZ06]

Originally Posted by arakis

You seem not to understand the difference between the rulebook equvivelancy forumula, and the BoP...

(neither does ACO/FIA but that's another matter)

The Vettes were never in the history of their GTE challenge, been slowed down by BoP. They were however helped by BoP in different degrees over the years....sometimes helped less, sometimes helped more...

Fact is without BoP the 2012 widebody revision of the 'vette would be a much slower car then it is now, while without BoP the Ferrari would be a slightly faster car.

2009 and 2010 they were shafted by the ACO to stop them from dominating, do you not get that? They've been unrestricted slowly over the last 2 years but to be honest they don't need any more adjustments.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by arakis

The Vettes were never in the history of their GTE challenge, been slowed down by BoP. They were however helped by BoP in different degrees over the years....sometimes helped less, sometimes helped more...

They have 15kg extra ballast this year (outside ALMS). Okay that is obviously overshadowed by the restrictor break but nevertheless

I think that the Corvette weighed 1270kg at the beginning of 2010 which was obviously way more than on the Ferraris and Porsches. Also the 5,5 liter displacement limit came into place after 2009 as ACO got too scared of their performance...

[busdegnao]

if you talk about GT1 cars, in 2009 corvette racing was the only GT1 work team that was still running at le mans, in LMS luc alphand was the only team that entered in all races, there wasn't a thing to help/penalize. In 2010 all the GT1 cars in LMS/LM ran with the same min. weight of 1250kg, there wasn't any big struggle about bop because the GT1 class was already ignored.
Talking about GT2 cars, in 2009 i don't know if received weight ballast but i know for sure that the car in 2010 was forced to use extra ballast for all the ALMS races. It was a IMSA decision. However in 2010 bmw, porsche and ferrari were fiercly fighting for the title, even with a standard min. weight corvette wasn't going to dominate a thing.

[MitchZ06]

I'm talking the GT2 car in 2009 and 2010...

[arakis]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

2009 and 2010 they were shafted by the ACO to stop them from dominating, do you not get that? They've been unrestricted slowly over the last 2 years but to be honest they don't need any more adjustments.

The bloody car had 47 waivers when it entered racing in 2009 and it's engine iligal Ferrari and porshe with 360/430/458 and 996/997 together for the last 12 years had less then 10...thats 5 different cars, with ~huge dev steps made every 2 years..

proving that great GTE cars can be built withut waivers and BoP crap...as can great competitons. IMO if someone want's to race them and brag abut it, they should build the car to the rules and prove themselves, and if they can't they should find another class where they can feel good about themselves and can get a pat on the back for the effort ...this is how ACO treated everyone in the pre BMW/'vetter era, and poor spyker paid for it....now that was a car that needed waivers and BoP, but was entirly ignored by FIA/ACO, as BMW/Vette should have beeen

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by arakis

The bloody car had 47 waivers when it entered racing in 2009 and it's engine iligal Ferrari and porshe with 360/430/458 and 996/997 together for the last 12 years had less then 10...thats 5 different cars, with ~huge dev steps made every 2 years..

proving that great GTE cars can be built withut waivers and BoP crap...as can great competitons. IMO if someone want's to race them and brag abut it, they should build the car to the rules and prove themselves, and if they can't they should find another class where they can feel good about themselves and can get a pat on the back for the effort ...this is how ACO treated everyone in the pre BMW/'vetter era, and poor spyker paid for it....now that was a car that needed waivers and BoP, but was entirly ignored by FIA/ACO, as BMW/Vette should have beeen

So basically we are back to what Chiana said about how the lack of a GT1 category is actually hurting GTE

[MitchZ06]

Lol, so back when we had 2 cars that were rather similar in performance OFCOURSE there would be no need for waivers to balance the cars as they were quite similar as is along with no full works teams. Understand?

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Also the 5,5 liter displacement limit came into place after 2009 as ACO got too scared of their performance...

I think this is one of the most overlooked issues, and relates to the joke I was making about the 5.5 minimum displacement rules. The rules give an advantage to cars under the 5.5 max displacement as they didn’t have to change a thing as Arakis reminds us every five minutes. I bet a good deal of the waivers he likes to complain about are related to the different engine Corvette Racing is forced to use because of the new ACO rules. He also didn’t mind when the ACO dropped the restrictor break for 2 valve engines. This crying about waivers on the Vette is silly when they don’t even know what they are or were for.