Brabham BT28-29-30-35-36 - Page 20

Bryan Miller · 3 Aug 2005, 07:24 (Ref:1370790)

Thanks Ted,
Must be a typo in F1R.
Bryan.

Chris Townsend · 3 Aug 2005, 08:20 (Ref:1370823)

This is from my F.Atlantic car database concerning Dick Barker's F.Atlantic Brabham
I disagree with Ted that the car at Mallory was BT29-20, though Barker may own that car later in the year. It was, I think, BT28-2 at Mallory, but the confusion may stem from Barker owning both BT28-20 and BT28-2 at different times!

Brabham BT28 [2]–Ford t/c and later BDA, rebuilt to BT29/35 spec.
Delivered March 1969 for Clarke Mordaunt racing team for Mike Beuttler in F3. Used throughout the year. Sold to Jim Edwards for UK F3 in 1970. Edwards is described as appearing in ‘the Four Flags ex Beuttler BT28' [MN 25.6.70 p.9]. Sold to Mike Stow for Formula Atlantic in 1971: at the first race of the season Stow appears in ‘the hard-worked ex Beuttler 1969 F3 BT28 beautifully restored by Jim Glebe' [MN 11.3.71 p.6]. The car is updated to BT29/35 spec, or at least described as such in programmes. Sold to Dick Barker at the beginning of 1972. According to MN 27.1.72 p.19, Barker has ‘bought Stow’s ex Beuttler Brabham which was brought up to FB BT29 specification last year.’ Since Beuttler’s 1970 BT28 was used throughout 1971 by José Ferreira in F3, this reference can only be to BT28-2. (The Beuttler/Ferreira car is probably the ex-Beuttler BT28 used by Glenn Hyatt in F4 in 1972 [A/S Sept, 1972], though this could possibly be Barker selling on the remains of BT28-2 after its big accident in the European F2 race at Crystal Palace.) What complicates the attribution of this car as BT28-2 is that MN 16.3.72 p.9 and MN 6.4.72 p.6 give its chassis number as BT28-20. BT28-20 was an ex Stow car, used in late 1969 by David Cole [debuting Crystal Palace 13.9.69], and was sold in late 1969 [MN 27.11.69 p.19] to Barker who used it in F3 in 1970. However, BT28-20 was sold to Alan Joy in 1971, who used the car in F3 throughout 1971, and the chassis number is given [A/S 25.3.71 p. 35] Joy offers the car for sale [A/S 7.10.71 p. 45] updated to this year's F3 spec; and it is then offered for sale by Spencer Elton, [A/S 2.3.72, 'ex Stow/Barker/Joy’], after MN says that Barker has bought Stow’s 1971 car. Furthermore, it would seem as though BT28-20 spent 1972 being raced in F3 by David Wadham-Smith. An ad in A/S 11.1.73 p.50 by Spencer Elton [again] gives the chassis no BT28-20 and says 'ex Stow/Barker/Joy/Wadham-Smith’. The BT28-20 attribution for Barker’s car might be explained either by a misprint or mistake in note-taking (MN’s F2 reporter assuming that Barker had kept his 1970 ‘ex Stow’ car), or by Barker having kept a plate from BT28-20 and attaching it to his new car. Barker has a BT29/35 for sale A/S 5.4.73 p.64 [Ashley 2279] which may be this car, or possibly – given the damage suffered by BT28-20 at Crystal Palace – a rebuild of BT29-20, which was originally sold to Steve Matchett with BT29-19 in 1970 and which has not yet been traced elsewhere.

Bryan Miller · 3 Aug 2005, 09:51 (Ref:1370904)

Chris,

Can't agree that a mistake was made in reference to the Mallory 1972 meeting , as I just checked the Autosport report which states ''Dick Barker in his ex Mike Stow BT29 in Atlantic trim with a Graham Eden BDA. That sort of deletes the fact that M.N made a reporting error , with the two magazines we rely on both advising ex Stow .What it could be is a reporter assuming that a BT28 when fitted with a BDA should then be called a BT29 off his own bat, when in fact is is a BT28 updated to BT29 specs.
What it may well be is chassis plate switching as you suggest.
Interestingly Autosport report BT35-8 as ''F/Atlantic man Ed Reeves entered his Dave Bowen prepared F3 BT35 chassis '', something this car has never been since leaving the factory is an F3.
What seemed prevelant at this time is pure confusion with some reporters stating a car was ''say'' a BT35 simply because it had been back to Brabhams and updated to new bag tank/body work , when in fact it was a BT28 updated with BT35 components , and correctly should have been entered and described as a BT28/35, similarly in the case of a March description should be March 712/73B/76B , but that would have made life too easy for us.

Bryan.

Chris Townsend · 3 Aug 2005, 14:35 (Ref:1371151)

Bryan
Part of the problem is that these cars get called all things, not least by their owners.

However!
According to MN 27.1.72 p.19, Barker has ‘bought Stow’s ex Beuttler Brabham which was brought up to FB BT29 specification last year.’

This is certainly BT28-2. It cannot be chassis 20 as that's racing F3 with Joy.
Agree the Mallory car is ex Stow but there is no evidence of Stow having anything other than BT28-2 throughout 1971 Atlantic season, and he does fit a BDA in it during 1971, at the same time changing the description to BT28/29, or BT29/35 and
even plain BT35 depending on the bodywork fitted and the mood he was in. [I now have programmes for virtually every Atlantic race in 1971 and most of the organisers result sheets] Even at the first Atlantic race in 71 - the point at which MN identifies the car as Beuttler's 69 F3 car - Stow calls it a BT29/35.

MN is very specific: ex Beuttler, ex Stow [can't be a BT29 as Beuttler never raced one, can only be one of two BT28s and Ferreira's got the other]. Ergo, Barker, BT28-2 all of 1971.

Dick Barker was dirt poor - he'd be high up the grid for the race to be the hardest
up bloke on the grid [though I remember Eric Horsfield going without food for some
days when I was doing FF] Barker certainly didn't have the wherewithal to buy first Stow's BT28 and then a BT29 from somewhere, giving him two BDA engined cars. [If he had two cars in early 1972 how come he fails to start half the Atlantic races he
enters when all he need do is switch to the spare?]

If Barker did have BT29-20, and it's a big if, it might be after he bends the BT28
very badly at Crystal Palace and instead of repairing it buys a replacement.

I believe that what might be BT29-20 has been traced to Staffordshire - Barker's home county. This might encourage us to think that the ex Matchett car had passed
through his hands. However, another Staffordshire resident with a BT29/35 in 1972-3 is Howard Rose. This might be BT29-20 or it could be the much reworked remains of Barker's BT28-2

RAP · 5 Aug 2005, 19:03 (Ref:1373193)

Isn't there a third "Beuttler" BT28 in this story somewhere ? F1R records BT28-35 with Beuttler at Snetterton 15/3/70 and Oulton 22/8/70. Also, Autosport describes his car as "new" 8/3/70. So Beuttler's 1970 car is neither BT28-2 or BT28-20. So which was Ferreira - logically 35?

Stowe's role confuses me. He had BT28-20 is 1969 which was driven a couple of times by Beuttler so this, not 2, is surely more likely to be "Stow's ex Beuttler Brabham". Is there evidence that Stow had BT28-2? I'm confused............time for a stiff drink !

RAP

Chris Townsend · 7 Aug 2005, 12:21 (Ref:1374268)

RAP

Yes, Ferreira's car was his new 1970 model - I didn't know what chassis number it carried.
Beuttler only drove this and chassis 2. Chassis 20 went new to Stow late 1969 then to Barker in 1970, then to Joy 1971 [or even earlier] then to Wadham Smith for 1972. When do we think Beuttler drove BT28-20? [I used to think this but then couldn't find any evidence.] Stow must have BT28-2 early 1971 for Atlantic: Ferreira has 35; Joy has 20 and Stow's car at Brands 1971 is described specifically as Beuttler's old car.

Agree it's b***** complicated and not helped by possible errors in recording
chassis nos. I've looked at this every which way for the last two years and this
seems to me the solution. The Barker car at Mallory can't be BT28-20.
It could be BT29-20, but that would mean Barker buying two different cars within a month of each other - without us having any evidence of the provenance of the second.

Chris

RAP · 7 Aug 2005, 15:33 (Ref:1374350)

Chris
"When do we think Beuttler drove BT28-20? [I used to think this but then couldn't find any evidence]"

I think I took this from your (much) earlier post in this story, but it appeared credible as F1R recorded Cole's Crystal Palace car as BT28-2 and Beuttler was at Albi that weekend. So, if Cole was in BT28-2 Beuttler wasn't. The F1R guys used to read chassis numbers, however I would now assume that this is a mis-reading or typo for BT28-20.

RAP

Ted Walker · 8 Aug 2005, 07:22 (Ref:1374686)

Spoke with my pal Spencer Elton today. He had 28-20 for sale at the same time as 29-20 was at Mallory park.As we have commented on before cars were often described as a "BT28-35" meaning a 28 with the new spec wider35 body,not as 28 chassis 35.

Chris Townsend · 8 Aug 2005, 15:02 (Ref:1375030)

Richard

That 28-2 for Stow in 1969 is a maybe a bit of a problem. [I understood his car to be new at that race] One misprint I can accept, but don't want to keep assuming them.
Does F1R give BT28-20 for Stow at any point in 1969? What other evidence do we have for this car as Stow's? Or, does Beuttler get 28-20 late season and flog the well
used 28-2 to Stow?

Next question: does F1R give a chassis number for Jim Edwards's ex Beuttler BT28 in 1970?

Chris

RAP · 8 Aug 2005, 18:46 (Ref:1375190)

Chris
F1R recordings of these two chassis are
17/5/69 Monaco BT28-2 Beuttler
3/8/69 Brands BT28-2 Beuttler
13/9/69 CP BT28-2 Cole
9/11/69 Brands BT28-2 Beuttler (tends to discount "sold" possibility)
15/3/70 Snetterton BT28-2 Edwards
21/3/71 Brands BT28-20 Joy

Just to confuse matters throughly
21/8/71 Oulton Ferreira in BT28-27 !!!!

No recordings of BT28-20 in F3 book at all.

RAP

allenbrown · 8 Aug 2005, 19:20 (Ref:1375221)

In my experience, F1R tend to extrapolate a chassis number from actual sightingsw. So if, as an example, they see Bloggs in Chassis 21 at Oulton Park in May, they'll assign him to chassis 21 all season. If Bloggs actually crashed chassis 21 at Snetterton in June and drove chassis 32 for the rest of the season, F1R may not know that so their records will be wrong.

What we don't know is how many times in 1969 a F1R person actually saw a BT28-2 chassis plate on Beuttler's car. Adam may know - he often gave F1R this sort of information (but 1969 is probably well before his time).

Allen

Adam Ferrington · 8 Aug 2005, 20:30 (Ref:1375267)

Allen,

Yes, you are correct in relation to F2/F3000
In my time "recording" for them (largely from 1977) I sent Paul my lists for each meeting I attended. As you say he would then assume that following appearances by a driver/car were the same as my or Duncan's observations.
I think the F3 Fact Books are slightly different. Paul didn't have enough data to attempt to "record" chassis numbers for each race. Chassis numbers only appear intermittently (certainly in the 72/73 one which I'm familiar with). I assume that if they appear intermittently that they are somebody's observations (unless they're gleaned from AU/MN) - probably usually Duncan. Of course typos can/do creep in. Duncan is/was very assiduous about recording what he saw, but occassionally he asked the team what the chassis number was, if he couldn't see it.

All this probably doesn't help to clear the "muddy pool" much, but that was the modus operandi.

RAP · 8 Aug 2005, 22:07 (Ref:1375355)

I 100% agree with Adam's comments. The F1/F2 books do have the potential weakness cited by Allen but The F3 book only list chassis numbers infrequently (as my post indicates) and I have been told by Paul that they are actual "sightings" but of course are as open to human error as the rest of our activities!
Richard

Chris Townsend · 9 Aug 2005, 09:09 (Ref:1375576)

I'd have to say, based on considerable copy editing experience, that the F1/F2 books are blessed with more than their fair share of typos. It's not unusual for what is 742-15 at one race to be 732-15 at the next, and the text editing is decidedly dodgy. The information gathering may have been assiduous but I've always tried to double reference entries in these books with other information.

I do, however, take Richard's point about the F3s, as there is no extrapolation - however, that doesn't rule out typos, and in the context of Stow having BT28-20 and
Edwards 28-2 in 1970, that's what the Crystal Palace entry in 1969 starts to look like.
MN describes Stow's car [run for Cole] as brand new. BTW what was Beuttler doing that weekend, where and what with?

Re Ferreira: Wasn't BT28-27 the car for Jean Blanc in 1970?

Chris

RAP · 9 Aug 2005, 09:37 (Ref:1375590)

"MN describes Stow's car [run for Cole] as brand new BTW what was Beuttler doing that weekend, where and what with?"
Chris
Stow actually raced in a BT28 which Autosport descibes as "new".
at Silverstone on 1st Sept (Aug Monday) in a F Libre race (3rd).
Beuttler was at Albi 14th Sept , "Clarke-Mordaunt" per Autosport No special comments on car being different.
Richard

allenbrown · 27 Aug 2005, 12:04 (Ref:1392427)

Just corresponding with Doug Brenner and have discovered that his BT29 was chassis 44, bought new from Charlie Hayes. He couldn't remember who he sold it to but it was in 1972, and he recalls it being wrecked and broken up for parts.

The Chevron B15b (wrong thread, I know) came from Fred Opert and was picked up at Sebring after Rene Wissell had won the race in it. That went to Byron Hatten who flipped it at Riverside. It was then a FC for a while.

Chris Townsend · 28 Aug 2005, 10:05 (Ref:1392876)

Allen

I have BT29 chassis 44 as Larry Wright's car, delivered 15.12.70. Kept by Wright to end 1973 then shared with Mark Bahner for a few years more.

Chris

allenbrown · 28 Aug 2005, 10:12 (Ref:1392881)

Chris

Where did your details come from? You have delivery dates?!

Allen

allenbrown · 28 Aug 2005, 10:16 (Ref:1392883)

Sorry - I withdraw the question. I've just found Bryan's post. I'll go back and ask Doug if he's sure.

Bryan Miller · 28 Aug 2005, 22:49 (Ref:1393319)

Allen,

No need to ask Doug really, it all ties up.
Car is very badly damaged and basically broken up , then when it becomes historically interesting the frame and some other dead bits start having other components added to them to be turned into a ''restoration project '' .

It is not a restoration when they are this far gone , more a recreation around a bent chassis and a few other damaged and rusty parts in my view.

Bryan.

allenbrown · 29 Aug 2005, 07:07 (Ref:1393464)

Does it tie up? How can Larry Wright and Boug Brenner both have had BT29-44 from new?

Where did Steve Pike and Jim McColville get the chassis number and delivery date from? Mike Fitzgerald?

Allen

Bryan Miller · 29 Aug 2005, 09:08 (Ref:1393545)

Allen,

I can only report what is in black and white in front of me , which is ,

Sales invoice from Hayes Racing Equip. inc.
1560 East Edinger Ave.
Santa Ana California , invoice no. 6077 dated 12/15/70.

1 x BT29 Brabham with used Brian Hart Engine , xxx dollars less xxxx dollars [ trade in ] Invoice made out to Larry Wright , 3060 Canyon Cres. # 5,
Riverside , Calif. 92507.

Further we then have SCCA logs # 19-332 [ 1972]
Brabham BT29-44 , FB , Yellow / Orange ,etc.

Also a recontruction of the cars history by Larry Wright starting at 2.13.71 through to 6.24.73 when and I quote ''
SCCA National Laguna Seca , crashed terminally in A.M. warmup ..punted off by F.A. at the crest of hill in turn one''.

I don't know where

Bryan Miller · 29 Aug 2005, 09:10 (Ref:1393547)

stuffed that up ]]

I don't know where Doug Brenner comes into it , maybe co-owner of the car , ?????????????????

Regards Bryan.

Chris Townsend · 29 Aug 2005, 09:53 (Ref:1393571)

Wright appears Seattle May 23 1971. I can't find an appearance for
Brenner in 1971 with a BT29. Did he run SCCA?

Bryan
A summary of the Wright appearances and results would be very
useful for those of us trying to piece together SCCA races from
1971 onwards, because there are hardly any results to be had otherwise.

[and thanks Australia for another great game -you guys just don't roll
over, ever, do you?]

allenbrown · 29 Aug 2005, 09:58 (Ref:1393572)

Not a co-owner. Doug raced in the same races as Larry Wright in 1971 so it can't be the same car. Unless Wright bought a first BT29, crashed in before 1972, bought Brennan's similar car in early '72 and applied for a new log book. Sounds a bit implausible, doesn't it?

I reckon Brennan must have mis-remembered or misread the number. I'll ask.

Allen