USCC (leave your axe outside)

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Lagunaseca_4life

The world and the United States were completely different back then.

If you want to go nostalgic with the class names, why not also demand wec p1 and p2 be changed to group c and what ever else the other class was.

P,PC,gtlm,and gtd sound good, let's keep it at that.

You are rationalizing with a false premise of the world being different etc, etc, etc.

In the U.S. short track racing and non top pro class drag-racing is flourishing with number of cars attending and MOST IMPORTANTLY fans in the stands.
Ford just told the NHRA they are pulling all top level support out and putting it into super stock classes because the top classes have zero identity and return for them.
They will still spend big money but not where the NHRA wants it; this is the same problem, ( many Penske class drag racers, say the NHRA has a serious problem,) that has hit Road Racing and Indy car racing.

In the article in AutoWeek the spokeman for Penske said the GT class represents something fans can identify with but in prototypes due to unstable confused rules the cars mean nothing .

All the top racing series in the U.S. are trying to push cars that represent nothing or dictate how they race, so the racing is a farce (the 1000 ft. track in drag racing is heavily criticized.)

The god wannabes running the sanctions are too arrogant to realize they are wearing a version of the emperors new cloths.

One kinda-sorta good thing is when rules change and no one really knows what is going on, some times some very interesting things happen at first.

[Aysedasi]

Personally, I think a lot gets hidden behind the 'fans can identify with it' excuse...... It trots off the tongue so nicely......

[jeast]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

All the high end sports cars are beginning to incorporate hybrid technology. That's the trend. If Tudor is leading-edge technology, they will need to begin incorporating the technology in the near future. Since P2 is closest to P1 where the advances in the world are being made, utilizing P2 as the bridge to this technology seems logical.

The thought came to me while contemplating how they were going to speed P2 up to match the increases in horsepower, downforce and top-end speed that has been awarded to DP. So, to balance them out, it seems that P2's are based more on the efficiency model and that's where their performance increases should be coming from. Adding HP means more fuel. Maybe, the P2's won't need it and they will go farther on less so while the DP's are making pit stops for more fuel, they stay on the track longer.

But, the bottom line is that the major manufacturers of sports cars are starting to build hybrid systems. Will they have to be removed to race Tudor or is there a plan to incorporate them?

Tudor is not leading-edge nor does it seem they want to be.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

All the high end sports cars are beginning to incorporate hybrid technology. That's the trend. If Tudor is leading-edge technology, they will need to begin incorporating the technology in the near future. Since P2 is closest to P1 where the advances in the world are being made, utilizing P2 as the bridge to this technology seems logical.

The thought came to me while contemplating how they were going to speed P2 up to match the increases in horsepower, downforce and top-end speed that has been awarded to DP. So, to balance them out, it seems that P2's are based more on the efficiency model and that's where their performance increases should be coming from. Adding HP means more fuel. Maybe, the P2's won't need it and they will go farther on less so while the DP's are making pit stops for more fuel, they stay on the track longer.

But, the bottom line is that the major manufacturers of sports cars are starting to build hybrid systems. Will they have to be removed to race Tudor or is there a plan to incorporate them?

Only sports cars with hybrids are the top three in wec,no body else has them. They are complicated and expensive,even the p1 privateers don't have them( pretty much only rebellion) aco homolgations don't allow for hybrids systems in p2s and make them pretty much as spec as dps are, if the aco allows it then maybe Imsa would consider it.

Tudor has not mentioned anything about leading edge or technology,or sold itself as that.alms once did but that is now long gone,plus they already have enough on their plate with bop.adding hybrids would make their heads spin.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

You are rationalizing with a false premise of the world being different etc, etc, etc.

In the U.S. short track racing and non top pro class drag-racing is flourishing with number of cars attending and MOST IMPORTANTLY fans in the stands.

In my experience, the ALMS races were quite well attended.
(Also, the world IS a bit different now. )

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Overrate? The solid numbers, and facts mostly being in the form of TV Ratings, manufacturer and sponsorship (gasp, loads of actual sponsors in sportscar racing and not just manufacturers and rich guy ride along additions?? Heresy!) and attendance told us that for the most part the public liked that era better than the ALMS and Grand Am, not fan nostalgia.

Comparing current TV Ratings with those of thirty years ago is kind of silly,
so much has changed since the eighties.
Sports car racing must now compete with so many more forms of entertainment for the viewers attention, not only other types of sporting events but also video games, internet, etc.
It would be awesome if Sports car racing could once again become "mainstream". However, achieving this will be more difficult than before.
The ALMS era was still awesome, even if it was under appreciated.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

Hopefully, one day, when we look back, both IMSA and the ALMS will seem overrated compared to the Tudor USCC.

Andy Flinn

Hopefully the new series will develop into a new golden age of sports car racing.
The GT classes certainly look like they will be awesome!

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan

Comparing current TV Ratings with those of thirty years ago is kind of silly,
so much has changed since the eighties.
Sports car racing must now compete with so many more forms of entertainment for the viewers attention, not only other types of sporting events but also video games, internet, etc.
It would be awesome if Sports car racing could once again become "mainstream". However, achieving this will be more difficult than before.
The ALMS era was still awesome, even if it was under appreciated.

Aha some one else gets it, thank you!

[Breitling24]

Originally Posted by BullMan

Continental is good at making really crappy tires, as perscribed by the sactioning body and it's specs.

Fixed it for you.

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by jeast

Tudor is not leading-edge nor does it seem they want to be.

The Tudor USCC already has 60+ cars (double the WEC) signed up to contest the full series. It doesn't need hybrids. Let the WEC have their handful. Meanwhile, with Chevy, Dodge, BMW, Ferrari, Porsche (and Aston Martin) Tudor GTLM will be every bit the match of GTE - if not superior. So, at this point, it appears that even most of the factories don't care about racing hybrids, either.

Andy Flinn

[Aysedasi]

Doesn't make them 'leading-edge' though, however you describe the content..... Whether you like it or not, and whether some of us wear rose-tinteds or not, a GT is still just a GT.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

I still love how the supposedly 'dumbed down' and 'NASCAR-ized' Tudor will likely have more factory and factory-supported teams than the mighty FIA WEC next year.

[chernaudi]

And two points: I doubt that most full field TUSCC races will have the 60+ car field that Daytona will have, and there's a reason why there's only about 30 cars entered at most WEC rounds outside of Le Mans.

First point: the Daytona field has 60+ cars, as there are a significant number of entries who are running in the NAEC endurance race championship that TUSCC has that carried over from Grand Am.

Also, I don't know if many recognize it or not, but the reason why rarely more than 30 cars show up for most WEC events outside of Le Mans is because IMSA, the FIA and the ACO agreed to an entry cap for full-time WEC entrants at Le Mans to about 30-36 cars to make room for ALMS teams, ELMS teams, and others who want to race at Le Mans and are accepted.

LM is a WEC round, but it's also a non-championship round for the ELMS and ALMS/TUSCC. So it wouldn't make much sense for the WEC to have 40-45 car entries for races outside of LM if LM has a 30-36 or so entry cap for WEC entries, and with the exodus of pay drivers and gentleman drivers from GA and ALMS to the WEC--which helped bring about TUSCC in the first place IMO--it could happen, not that I'd want it do.

And could the Corvette C7R and the Viper be racing in the WEC? Quite possibly, but there's a couple of things that could stand in the way of that, and both things are sort of tied together. One, is that entry cap, and how restrictive it is. Second, especially for the C7R, both the Corvette and Viper would almost essentially have to be entered in GTE-Pro. Pratt and Miller would've had to have pulled a Porsche and run the C7R in one race in '13 to get it homologated for both GTE classes for '14.

Only other way around that was to do what AF Corsa and MWR did to get Michael Waltrip and Rob Kauffman to run a Ferrari 458 for themselves at LM in 2011, and run what was essentially a GTE-Am line up in GTE-Pro, which if not unallowable, is certainly discouraged now.

And as we all know, even TUSCC has entry caps, with Prototype and GTLM being under-subscribed, and LMPC and GTD potentially being over-subscribed.

And as Ayse wrote, in broad terms, a GT car is still a GT car, and, IMO, a prototype is still a prototype. Still, though, I'd rather see 4-5 LMP1 cars, even if only 3-4 have a realistic chance of winning, racing and representing the peak of what can be done with technology that can trickle down to our road cars in fairly quick order, than see the potential alternatives.

And I'd rather see GT3 rules cars racing than the GTE-waiver mobiles, though both categories do show why BOP is important, whether or not we like it or not--after all, Audi R8s and Ferrari 458s would be winning almost everything put in front of them because they're among the very best GT sports cars on the road, let alone how much that helps them on a race track.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by jeast

Tudor is not leading-edge nor does it seem they want to be.

Play along with me and let's say that they are not there now but will want to be.

The ACO has gone to an efficiency model and there are exciting things happening in the world of hybrid prototypes. I'm personally amazed at some of the new ways teams like Audi are finding to harvest, store and expend energy. These are exciting times in the sport.

The folks in Daytona have their hands full right now but once the dust settles, there are long-term rules and designs that are going to become more standardized on the international front. I know Daytona has just reached the stage of Direct Injection so there is progress being made in advanced engines.

I think with the new rules coming into play in the next couple of years that we will see hybrid technology on the banks of Daytona.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Yep, I'm sure if they got rid of that entry cap races like the Shanghai and Bahrain 6 Hours and COTA would be absolutely packed with cars...



Go on.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Also, I don't know if many recognize it or not, but the reason why rarely more than 30 cars show up for most WEC events outside of Le Mans is because IMSA, the FIA and the ACO agreed to an entry cap for full-time WEC entrants at Le Mans to about 30-36 cars to make room for ALMS teams, ELMS teams, and others who want to race at Le Mans and are accepted.

Nah...

32 is the maximum level that WEC’s logistics can accommodate as full season travelling entries (from https://www.dailysportscar.com/?p=18898)

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And could the Corvette C7R and the Viper be racing in the WEC? Quite possibly, but there's a couple of things that could stand in the way of that, and both things are sort of tied together. One, is that entry cap, and how restrictive it is. Second, especially for the C7R, both the Corvette and Viper would almost essentially have to be entered in GTE-Pro. Pratt and Miller would've had to have pulled a Porsche and run the C7R in one race in '13 to get it homologated for both GTE classes for '14.

Labre has filed an official request to the ACO to receive permission to run a new C7R in next year´s WEC GTE-Am category. Let´s wait for their verdict.

[chernaudi]

WEC did poach a good number of pay drivers that previously ran in the ALMS and GA, as well as the ELMS. Why did the ELMS restructure, and why where both the ALMS and Grand Am in such dire straights that they merged?

The professional factory teams--especially in the prototype ranks, already left for the WEC. Audi pulled out after 2008, knowing that something like the WEC would come around if they waited long enough, they won everything in the ALMS that they could, and also won the hardware in the ELMS in 2004 and 2008. A World Championship is what they wanted, as did Peugeot (though Peugeot bailed on the WEC in early '12).

Porsche had a customer LMP2 program that didn't make the money they hoped, and they didn't want to go LMP1 racing at the time.

The WEC poached Audi from the ALMS, Peugeot (for a time) from the ELMS, and convinced Porsche and Toyota to return to sportscar racing from a sabbatical

Also in GTE, we have Aston Martin and Porsche in the WEC, where as TUSCC only gets customer teams, which is better than nothing, but no factory teams.

The WEC IMO did sort of shaft the ALMS and ELMS, and further muddied the waters for GA, because the relationship between the ALMS and ELMS was never defined IMO--were they regional series that supported the WEC, or feeder series? For GA, it further distanced them from OEMs and what the "rest of the world" was doing as far as rules and regs. In all three cases, a lot of pay drivers and gentleman drivers did feel that they'd get bigger bang for their buck in a World Championship.

In all cases, you'd lose a good chunk of the field of the WEC, TUSCC, ELMS, and the former ALMS and GA series if all the paying drivers concentrated in only one place. And that's a big part of why we're at where we are now with American sportscar racing, as well as it being a niche sport that's never had the same cachet that NASCAR for example has had--it's seen just as a form of motorsport for car makers and rich dudes.

As far as how this does relate to TUSCC, they're basically stuck with their current compromised package for at least 2-3 years. IMO, if they want to grow into a major player and curry favor with the FIA--who run a World Championship for sportscars--and the ACO--who run the most prestigious sportscar race on the planet, and IMO, the most prestigious single motorsports event on the planet--they have to get more in line with what those factions want.

If not, they're at risk of alienating themselves from the ACO and the FIA, and will have TUSCC remain a regional series of dubious value to those factions--the same things that doomed GA and ultimately also the ALMS in the first place. IMSA may've made it work to go against the international bodies' regs with IMSA GTP, I'm not so sure they can make it work this time if that's what they intend to do, which at this stage, I don't think that anyone knows that IMSA, or even the ACO/FIA faction, intend to do following the '15-16 time frame.

Maybe things will be the other way around--maybe if TUSCC is successful, the internationals might want to incorporate some of that into their series. But I don't think that we'll know what will work and what will not because of everything now being in such a state of flux with mergers and regulations changes across the board.

[Mechanic Z]

Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan

Comparing current TV Ratings with those of thirty years ago is kind of silly,
so much has changed since the eighties.
Sports car racing must now compete with so many more forms of entertainment for the viewers attention, not only other types of sporting events but also video games, internet, etc.
It would be awesome if Sports car racing could once again become "mainstream". However, achieving this will be more difficult than before.
The ALMS era was still awesome, even if it was under appreciated.

+1, very well said.

[Mechanic Z]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Overrate? The solid numbers, and facts mostly being in the form of TV Ratings, manufacturer and sponsorship (gasp, loads of actual sponsors in sportscar racing and not just manufacturers and rich guy ride along additions?? Heresy!) and attendance told us that for the most part the public liked that era better than the ALMS and Grand Am, not fan nostalgia.

What we can learn from both IMSA GTP and the 'glory years' of the ALMS top prototype class (all 3 of them) is that prototype racing at it's peak in North America has essentially had history repeat itself twice now in both eras and it has pretty much collapsed for the exact same reason in the same way, I don't wish for that to happen again in NA prototype racing. Sometimes reaching full 'peak' aka Audi, Porsche, Nissan, Toyota ect spending huge amounts of money and putting on a manufacturer show for us for a couple of years isn't worth the inevitable horrible and damaging consequences that are sure to follow whenever the world economy decides to go bonkers or one boardroom changes their opinion.

There's also the GTO and GTU classes, which prominently featured tube-framed prototypes disguised as mostly uninspiring cars; Mustangs, Celicas, Olds Toronados and Cutlasses, Chevy Berettas, Dodge Daytonas, Nissan 240SXs, etc.

And then there's the unfortunate drug problems.

I'm not arguing that IMSA in the 80's wasn't popular, I'm not saying that it didn't have good points, I'm just saying that perhaps people tend to forget the flaws that the era had.

By the way, where do the TV ratings come from, and how do they arrive at these ratings? I'm not doubting them, I'm just curious.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

If not, they're at risk of alienating themselves from the ACO and the FIA, and will have TUSCC remain a regional series of dubious value to those factions--the same things that doomed GA and ultimately also the ALMS in the first place. IMSA may've made it work to go against the international bodies' regs with IMSA GTP, I'm not so sure they can make it work this time if that's what they intend to do, which at this stage, I don't think that anyone knows that IMSA, or even the ACO/FIA faction, intend to do following the '15-16 time frame.

Maybe things will be the other way around--maybe if TUSCC is successful, the internationals might want to incorporate some of that into their series. But I don't think that we'll know what will work and what will not because of everything now being in such a state of flux with mergers and regulations changes across the board.

That didn't work for Grand AM either and they had the additional problem of no fan interest. It only worked for old IMSA because the cars and races were really exciting and a lot of the cars were usable elsewhere - i.e. not a total insular vacuum, but still ultimately failed. I might begin to suspect it's much like fashion - there's a definite life cycle and then something new, not necessarily better (remember granny skirts?) is needed

[chernaudi]

An other issue with sportscar racing in general, and that certainly includes TUSCC, is this desire to re-create the glory of the "good ole days". Nothing wrong with wanting a taste of that, but so much has changed between now and then, in short, what worked back then might not work now.

I personally wish for a taste of the '60s, '70s, '80's and '90s, since I didn't become a serious sportscar fan until around 2000 and I was only born in the mid 1980s, hence too young to remember a lot of that stuff. But I also know the negative trade-off from those eras, namely driver injuries and fatalities, and car construction and circuit safety standards that many of us now would see as lax at best, and downright lunacy at worst!

And I'll bet as far as the final product, that we all would find something we didn't like about it, no matter the era or rules set.

We've all talked at great length about what we all don't like about TUSCC, from all angles and perspectives, but I'll point out how it could be worse. Imagine if there was a LMP1 class with a pair of Audi R18 e-tron quattros, even if "only" 2013 spec cars, were the headliners, and no Toyota to provide at least some serious opposition to Audi. I'd watch because of being an Audi fan, a fan of the technology in their cars and similar machines, and the inter-squad competition (no team orders at Audi aside from don't wreck each other). But, even at that, it'd be a bit stale after a while. I'd still watch, but it'd lack the edge of the seat excitement that some of the WEC rounds had last year.

It could be that bad, and I'd doubt that a lot of us would want to see an overall win decided just by one of the R18s finishing the race, far more often than not in a 1-2 finish an ungodly distance ahead of everyone else.

If TUSCC can produce an interesting on track product, I say try to enjoy it while you can. I say that, because sportscar racing in general is in such regulatory flux. I don't believe that there's ever been this much instability and uncertainty in sportscar racing in recent memory. Not since at least 1993.

Even when we went from WSC/GT1 to LMP900/LMGTP/LMP675 to LMP1/LMP2 to the engine spec changes in 2010-2011, I don't think there's been that much of a shake up like we're seeing now in at least the last 20 years at the international level, or even regionally. Even the DP formula for Grand Am was an evolution of the old WSC cars in so far as revisiting the R&S Mk III in a heavily modified closed cockpit form, and the engine rules encouraging the use of stock-block engines.

I have my wants and desires as much as everyone else here does, but that has to be tempered by reality and the knowledge that things can be worse--such as there being no true American sportscar series.

I can take this discussion to the general sportscar topic if that's advisable, but here, as far as TUSCC goes, were at a stage where the entire future of sportscar racing, both in North America and even worldwide, hinges on the fate of what the next coming couple of years presents.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by Mechanic Z

There's also the GTO and GTU classes, which prominently featured tube-framed prototypes disguised as mostly uninspiring cars; Mustangs, Celicas, Olds Toronados and Cutlasses, Chevy Berettas, Dodge Daytonas, Nissan 240SXs, etc.

And then there's the unfortunate drug problems.

I'm not arguing that IMSA in the 80's wasn't popular, I'm not saying that it didn't have good points, I'm just saying that perhaps people tend to forget the flaws that the era had.

By the way, where do the TV ratings come from, and how do they arrive at these ratings? I'm not doubting them, I'm just curious.

Those old GTO/U cars were not supremely competent wickedly fast cars like the modern crop - they were wild sloppy sliding flame belching monsters, all different and even though phony as hell, also fun as hell. Not so much better but surely worth remembering fondly.

Now we've traded fraud for drug running, smaller headlines.

There are always going to be some flaws - I would love it if TUSCC could do with only as many as the old IMSA, so far it isn't looking so good to me.

Neilsen is still the main TV ratings service, they have it honed pretty well. They have monitoring systems on actual in home systems. Their ratings make or break mainstream shows and advertising rates. Attendance figures are another can of worms and quite squirmy.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Also in GTE, we have Aston Martin and Porsche in the WEC, where as TUSCC only gets customer teams, which is better than nothing, but no factory teams.

Wow did everybody miss this?

Porsche played the bop politicking game early, and aston threw three over bop'd tanks onto the grid and just managed to create results.

TUSCC GTLM is to feature BMW, PORSCHE, SRT, and CORVETTE factory teams boasting two cars each.throw in a Porsche supported falken team and a risi Ferrari(maybe supported) and you get a much better looking pro gt class than wec's gte pro class.

2012 & 2013 Alms GT vs Wec GTE-pro? ALMS hands down.

[Maelochs]

I really respect you Chernaudi but I have to strongly disagree with this:

“If not, they're at risk of alienating themselves from the ACO and the FIA, and will have TUSCC remain a regional series of dubious value to those factions--the same things that doomed GA and ultimately also the ALMS in the first place.”

Rolex (not GA, which also runs the highly successful CTSCC) and ALMS did not crap out because of ILMC and WEC, though losing some teams to that competition didn’t help. ALMS and Rolex didn’t die because they didn’t have strong links with ACO/FIA (particularly ALMS, which many think had too much tie to ACO/FIA.)

Those two series died for very different reasons, which have been debated at length already. If either series could have fixed its faults—if ALMS could have promoted itself, put a good show on TV and not just on track, and could have then attracted enough sponsorship for teams to survive, and if Rolex could have run cars which anyone cared about (ACO/FIA compliant or not) either series could have survived totally independent of FIA/ACO.

As you point out in the next paragraph, IMSA ignored FIA/ACO with its highly successful GTP class, and FIA/ACO eventually came around, instead of the other way. If either Rolex or ALMS had managed to put on a show like GTP (or if ALMS had managed to promote the excellent show it put on track using mostly ACO/FIA rules) then there never would have been a TUSC.

I hope that by 2017 ACO/FIA have come up with a successful formula which TUSC can adopt, but if not, I hope TUSC comes up with its own—maybe based on whatever P2 rules are in place then, because obviously a series based on existing cars better for business.

If ACO/FIA rules dictate a P1 class that is so expensive only factories can seriously compete there and a P2 class which is so tightly regulated that it is essentially a spec class, then I hope TUSC can realize that neither option is the best way to attract U.S. sports car-racing fans.

Personally I would be happy if TUSC used P2-legal chassis with race engines to 3 liters and stock-based engines to five liters, maybe 1.5 and 3 for super/turbocharged, no max power, no designated torque curves, and let them race. Then promote it as TUSC is apparently planning to promote, based on that one ad, and drop all the stupid lucky-dog double-waveby crap and stop having the whole field pit after every caution (as Scot Elkins mentioned might happen) and I’d bet North American fans would watch eagerly even if ACO/FIA hated the rules.

Le Mans is the pinnacle, no doubt—but it is also only one weekend per year. If TUSC is a “regional series of dubious value to those factions” so what? Fans here don’t care, if we can turn on our TVs or open our web browsers and see awesome racing ten or fifteen times a season.

[TF110]

Why did this turn into a versus thread again? The wec doesn't need to be like tusc, nor vice versa. Watch both and enjoy their strong points. Or not and be biased, does it really matter?