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12 Dec 2013, 19:37 (Ref:3343277) | #5151 | ||
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Are you suggesting it's photoshopped? I suppose it's possible, but I think it looks like a studio shot of the real car with the background photoshopped in. Last edited by Dead-Eye; 12 Dec 2013 at 19:42. |
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12 Dec 2013, 20:05 (Ref:3343289) | #5152 | ||
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http://fourtitude.com/wp-content/upl...01-960x480.jpg |
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12 Dec 2013, 20:18 (Ref:3343295) | #5153 | ||
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its in here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_R...e-tron_quattro ( your link points only to flywheel KERS) I don't know, but you make it sound like the all its a single integrated system, including turbo charging compounding (electric) According to this https://www.audi-motorsport.info/v2/...single/id/8176 first pointed by Creep89 http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=5130 -A further developed V6 TDI mid-engine powers the rear wheels -e-tron quattro hybrid system at the front axle (ERS-K – Energy Recovery System Kinetic, a system to store kinetic energy) -Optimized flywheel energy storage system -Hybrid system with an electric turbocharger in the internal combustion engine (ERS-H – Energy Recovery System Heat, a system that stores energy converted from heat) (i think there is a mistake here, this last 2 sentences should be separated) I think ERS is now 3 separated systems. KERS is obviously directly connected to the flywheel (as was), and it deals with "recuperative breaking" from the front wheels MGU. The turbocharger electric compound might be similar to Renault F1 (and probably many others) http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013...0621.html#more ... and essentially recuperates energy by eliminating the need for a "waste gate" in the exhaust system, that is, the electric MGU connected to the exhaust turbine in *generation mode* provides parasitic torque, so no need to deviated exhaust flow to control the turbine RPM and so charging pressure. In *motor mode* it functions like a "supercharger" by electric means, almost instantaneously boosting turbine RPM and pressure after slow (slower) corners. Energy recovered from heat can only mean Thermoelectric Effects... at least i think so... that is why i think is a mistake in that press release. Of course "pressure" is directly proportional to "temperature" (heat), but the direct driver of the electric turbo generator is "pressure flow", and this has not only to do with temperature but also with the "velocity" of the escaping gases (can have less temperature yet more velocity, and so pressure, if engineered that way). Thermoelectric elements, they could be in the housing of the exhaust turbine, usually very hot, and necessitating "cooling", the necessary conditions for thermoelectric effects -> one surface very hot, other cooled;.. or they could be in the particulate filters and or NOx catalytic converters, if Audi employs any of those ( at least Peugeot did had 2 particulate filters FAP ). In the end all this leads to suspect Audi did an "efficiency" downsizing of the engine by augmenting the "turbo" factor ( as is the trend in F1, and has many constructors do for street performance cars)... perhaps 3 to 3.3 L, and a single turbo no matter the dual final exhaust exits ( electric demands it, so no bi-turbo) ... augmented in compensation by the "supercharging" effect of the electric turbo, and by having all engine ancillary by electric means ( can provide quite fuel efficiency and additional motive power since almost none of it is used to move ancillary), a thermoelectric generator would be essential for this, which would be like a permanent generator, since the exhaust remains quite hot during a race after warm up... and only that common rail pump consumes 10HP or more (more!)... *If* there are 3 ERS modes... then the comments of the most complex car ever are well deserved. |
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12 Dec 2013, 20:27 (Ref:3343301) | #5154 | ||
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hcl123, the regulations only allow two separate hybrid systems.
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12 Dec 2013, 20:31 (Ref:3343303) | #5155 | |
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One minor edit, instead of "recuperative breaking" from the front wheels MGU, you might want to say, "recuperative braking" from the front wheels MGU.
I'm sure that Audi would rather have recuperative braking rather than breaking! Recuperative breaking could get expensive quickly. |
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12 Dec 2013, 20:38 (Ref:3343305) | #5156 | ||
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Damn that's a good looking car
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12 Dec 2013, 20:52 (Ref:3343314) | #5157 | ||
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IMO the electric turbo works together with the thermalelectric system. But I do remember that somewhere in the press release mentioned that the energy of ERS-H can be used in the rear axle or the front axle according to strategy. That would be interesting.
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12 Dec 2013, 20:59 (Ref:3343323) | #5158 | |
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@hcl
Apart from the fact that there are only two seperate types of energy recovery allowed, the term "ERS-H(eat)" is misleading if I'm not wrong. ERS-H is just the eletric turbo thing you mentioned above. What drives the turbo (and could get wasted if you don't use it) is thermal energy, that's the reason for the naming. Imho there won't be any thermoeletric elements or stuff like that.. I'm not an engineer, but as far as I know, the efficiency of such elements is very low. It's just ERS-K (aka KERS) and ERS-H, similar to what they will have in their F1 cars next season. |
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12 Dec 2013, 21:02 (Ref:3343325) | #5159 | |
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The flywheel system is still only mounted to the front wheels. Thus, the ERS-H can be used on either the front axle or on the electric turbocharger.
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12 Dec 2013, 21:13 (Ref:3343334) | #5160 | |
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There is something weird. There are pieces you find on the actual car, which are missing in these shots. Maybe this is just another one they assembled for the shooting. The pictures are very dark, but if you brighten them a lot, you see these are stickers directly on the carbon, there is no wrap, and I bet they are not going to race that way. The question is, would the wrap be black or this was just a quick "sticker placement studies" model...... but hey, good things come to those who wait.
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12 Dec 2013, 21:25 (Ref:3343341) | #5161 | ||
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The energy recuperation methods are free, and the amount of energy recuperated also is free with no limits.. only the "release" is monitored and restricted <2 to <8 MJ/Lap. (like the fuel flows). And *obvious* this "release" as only to do with directly motoring the vehicle... all other energy recuperated can be used freely if not directly motoring the vehicle. Running the ancillary by electric means is directly mentioned in the "FINAL" draft as allowed. |
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12 Dec 2013, 21:31 (Ref:3343345) | #5162 | ||
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12 Dec 2013, 21:33 (Ref:3343347) | #5163 | |
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The previous version that ran at LeMans this year was the "long-tail", this looks like the "long-nose"
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12 Dec 2013, 21:52 (Ref:3343357) | #5164 | ||
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Surely thermoelectric elements can be part of that ERS-H... but that mention of "using it in the rear axle" is what is interesting... meaning that electric motor/generator is not only connected to the exhaust turbine shaft but must also be connected to the crankshaft drive train shaft ( or gearbox). Otherwise how could they use the ERS-H it in the rear axle ? .. the turbine shaft does not provide any motive power to any axle only engine intake pressure. Obviously using the rear MGU (ERS-H) in front only by transfer of electric power. If that is true Audi could have gone to <6MJ/Lap... i don't think they will go to the top 8 MJ (OTOH Toyota might), is not beneficial for diesel in current rules attending fuel flows. OTOH it provides even more "braking" (lol) power (this MGU on rear) a point where Audi loses for Toyota... clearly... Toyota has the shortest braking distances of all LMP1s, a good advantage with circuits with lots of slow corners (or wet conditions) .. and so Audi remain at 4MJ/Lap level and don't have to downsize engine too much(just a little). |
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12 Dec 2013, 22:23 (Ref:3343370) | #5165 | ||
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ERS-H (as Audi interprets it) is just the electric turbo, no more, no less To sum it up:
It's one sentence since it describes one and the same Last edited by FxL; 12 Dec 2013 at 22:50. |
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12 Dec 2013, 23:35 (Ref:3343392) | #5166 | |
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Where I have my questions is the area of the energy recovery from the heat (exhaust). I know that thermocouples work on the principle of temperature differentials and can generate electricity for measurements, but can the thermocouple principle be used to generate enough electricity to be useful in driving the electric turbo? If this is not the principle being used, what is?
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13 Dec 2013, 00:17 (Ref:3343409) | #5167 | ||
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@ FML Yes i tend to believe it will be very similar to the Renault F1 scheme ( http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013...0621.html#more )... no thermoelectric recuperation... and no "mechanical" linkage with the rear axle what so ever (Audi case for the MGU-K, only in front) . Yet none of this invalidates the possibility of *ALL* electric ancillary (beefed up alternator with an energy store)... though i put not much faith in it either. (all that perhaps in future ) |
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13 Dec 2013, 00:18 (Ref:3343410) | #5168 | |||
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Okay, we now know for sure that the 2014 Audi R18 e-tron quattro is equipped - as expected - with two ERSA (Energy Recovery System Assemblies), which is the maximum number of ERSA allowed by the rules (cf. Article 5.2.1). This includes a first ERSA, namely an ERS-K (or "KERS") recovering energy upon braking and comprising one MGU linked to the front axle, and a second ERSA, namely an ERS-H recovering energy from the exhaust gases and including an electric turbocharger. Both ERSA feed electric energy to the flywheel energy storage system.
For the sake of completeness, the official press release states the following: Quote:
The rules merely provide that the maximum amount of energy that can be released per lap (i.e. 2MJ, 4MJ, 6MJ or 8MJ depending on the option) is measured/counted only through the MGU(s) (see Articles 5.2.3 and 5.2.4). In other words, the rules only limit the amount of energy released through the MGU(s). In Audi's case, that only applies to the energy released through the single MGU on the front axle. In Audi's case, that further means that the energy that may be released through the electric turbocharger (presumably for the purpose of reducing or eliminating turbo-lag) is not as such limited. The only limit is the amount of energy that can be recovered by the combined operation of the two ERSA and the energy storage capacity of the flywheel system. I now wonder which energy option Audi will opt for. The ERS-K alone should be sufficient to recover at least 4MJ at LM, as this basically reflects what 2013 hybrid cars were already capable of achieving. How much additional energy can the ERS-H recover ? That's the question. I suspect that Audi will probably opt for the 4MJ or 6MJ option as I am guessing that the ERS-H alone cannot recover similar amounts of energy as the ERS-K. Audi will maybe show me wrong though. |
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13 Dec 2013, 00:18 (Ref:3343412) | #5169 | ||
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13 Dec 2013, 00:49 (Ref:3343425) | #5170 | |
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yes the car looks good, pity now we'll never know the real displacement ... doubt Audi divulges it... neither the real top turbo pressure below the max 4 bar allowed.
It could give a better technical picture. Yet since there is electric turbo compounding with recuperation doubt the top effective pressure will be superior to 3 bar... 2013 was 2.5bar... leading perhaps to a little downsizing. [ A V6 that doesn't pass the 5K RPM doesn't make much above 4 bar, so to have "something" to recuperate it will lower ] |
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13 Dec 2013, 00:52 (Ref:3343427) | #5171 | |
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@chl123
Yes, that's true. I just wanted to express that "ERS-Heat" is quite a general term and could mislead to the assumption that there must be some kind of thermoeletric technology involved. This is of course something the automotive industry has an eye on and there is research in the progress in order to support or replace alternators. But for 2014, the combination of turbo and e-machine is imo the only "thermo element" (in a metaphorical sense of course) used by the manufacturers, but it would be okay for me if I was totally wrong about it . We'll see what the future holds, using thermal energy could play a key role at some point. |
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13 Dec 2013, 01:09 (Ref:3343434) | #5172 | |||
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13 Dec 2013, 01:14 (Ref:3343438) | #5173 | ||
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I tend to believe Toyota "capacitors" is still much better... full electric power just after slow(slower corners)... the Audi flywheel system for the same is not restricted to 120Kmh anymore but can't have the same instantaneous power(and is much harder to control). Last edited by hcl123; 13 Dec 2013 at 01:33. |
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13 Dec 2013, 01:15 (Ref:3343439) | #5174 | |
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I'm still not clear on how the heat harvesting and storage is occurring. I think that once it is harvested and stored, the expenditure of the energy through either the electric turbo or the electric motors is clear, its just how the heat is being converted into electricity is unclear in my mind.
Is it clearer in your mind? I may be a little slow here in interpreting the statements and the technology and hoping for clarification. |
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13 Dec 2013, 01:46 (Ref:3343454) | #5175 | |||
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As for Porsche's ERS-H, I would expect that it follows a similar avenue as Audi's and that it also involves some sort of electrical machine coupled to the engine's turbocharger. That looks very much as being a solution which is road car relevant and would therefore be entirely consistent with Audi's and Porsche's approach. |
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