IMSA DPi Discussion

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

A try to sum up the reasons for folks to go race in the ELMS:

- more budget friendly & less time consuming (because of only 6 4H races + pre season test)
- Pro-Am top class
- direct path and close proximity to LM24 ("lifetime dream by funding driver")
- less question marks over prototype classes

And

- No LM Test Day conflict
- EXACTLY the same chassis spec and general procedure rules as the other ACO series
- You can align yourself with the tire manufacturer of own choice instead of Conti-Hoosier force feed (that you'd have to ditch anyway if you want to not suck at LM)
- No BoP crap
- No politics crap

I don't agree with ELMS policy of mandated pro-am, and the "necessity" to have them as top class instead of LMP1 privateer which REALLY should have that slot by all logic in the world, even more now with the spec rules, but otherwise it makes more sense for me. If I were LMP2 owner that is. You can then always freely enter Daytona/Sebring/PLM as one-off quest of course if you have extra budget

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by Chiana

- No Test Day conflict
- EXACTLY the same spec and general procedure rules as the other ACO series
- You can align yourself with the tire manufacturer of choice instead of Conti-Hoosier force feed
- No BoP crap
- No politics crap

- No test day conflict is because a series that caters to Detroit automakers kinda wants to race in Detroit. Not all that hard to understand.
- Exactly the same spec, OK, you can have that point.
- You can align yourself with a tire manufacturer only if its Michelin or Dunlop, and next year it will be just Michelin, so this hating on Continental is kinda a case of pot-meet-kettle, no?
- BoP happens everywhere. It just so happens that because IMSA didn't have the audacity to tell all the DP teams to scrap their million-dollar investments and they were woefully behind the curve at sorting out the initial BoP that people still, even now after a P2 won both the first two NAEC rounds in convincing fashion, stick to the viewpoint that IMSA favors the DPs.
- No politics crap is because IMSA is wedged between a rock and a hard place and has made an incredibly bad decision in sticking with the ACO's idiotic spec-car P2s and then is making it worse by trying to paint the DPi as a manufacturer class. If they'd done the right thing and given the ACO the finger a year ago this would not be so much of a problem.

Originally Posted by Chiana

I don't agree with ELMS policy of mandated pro-am, and the "necessity" to have them as top class instead of LMP1 privateer which REALLY should have that slot by all logic in the world, but otherwise it makes more sense for me. If I were LMP2 owner that is. You can then always freely enter Daytona/Sebring/PLM as one-off quest of course if you have extra budget

Because all of the P2 owners are willing and able to spend millions on cars that may win in the ELMS but have absolutely no chance of success at Le Mans, which is what these people are really racing in the ELMS for.

Chiana, really, you know better on the LMP1 Privateer point - its dead, its not coming back, if it was going to come back the teams being pushed around in the LMP2 category would be trying to do it but none of them can make the economics work. Having them be the top class in ELMS or IMSA would just be screwing everyone else there aside from the one or two incredibly rich teams who can afford them.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

- No test day conflict is because a series that caters to Detroit automakers kinda wants to race in Detroit. Not all that hard to understand.

What does that matter to team that still is entered for LM and is required to be at the Test Day? Either they run at Detroit and Test Day simultaneously, or fold from Detroit and only do the Test. Those are the only two options, skipping Test Day in favor of Detroit-only means folding Le Mans entry. Even before this new-as-of-2016-Test-Day-participation-mandation, skipping it would have been half-suicide because of lost data.

Add to that the extra complication of possibly having the need to get two chassis to work it out, like with MSR this year. They have Oak to help them out so it's not impossible task, but for teams without direct companion help it's different.

So you see, who's fault it is for having the same on both weekend doesn't really matter in the end if you are doing LM anyway. It's less complicated with the other series

- You can align yourself with a tire manufacturer only if its Michelin or Dunlop, and next year it will be just Michelin, so this hating on Continental is kinda a case of pot-meet-kettle, no?

WTF on the "next year it will be just Michelin", it's still 100% free tire choice in all of ACO LMP2 next year. The initial fear was for spec-tires too, but that has been cleared out to be free again. No question whatsoever.

And btw, it's not restricted to Michelin or Dunlop by law, if Yokohama or whomever wants to come up or partner with someone it's entirely possible.

And as I said, if it was a Conti spec series like IMSA, no-one in their right mind would bring their spec tires to Le Mans, as they'd be blown out of the water. Even the spec-Dunlop-LMGTE tire (that is not half-bad) is being switched to Mics by most LMGTE teams doing LM, because tire performance does matter on this side of the pond.

- BoP happens everywhere. It just so happens that because IMSA didn't have the audacity to tell all the DP teams to scrap their million-dollar investments and they were woefully behind the curve at sorting out the initial BoP that people still, even now after a P2 won both the first two NAEC rounds in convincing fashion, stick to the viewpoint that IMSA favors the DPs.

There is zero (non-baseline-dictated) BoP in current ACO LMP2, despite the rules saying the theoretical possibility for such. The FIA and ACO documents (or rather lack of them) confirm this.

I'm not talking of the DP-P2 BoP fiasco, but the inter-P2 BoPping that is and will go on in IMSA. Ask Dragonspeed how they felt at Sebring.

Effectively, you could theoretically win all the races of the season without being bopped down "just because".

- No politics crap is because IMSA is wedged between a rock and a hard place and has made an incredibly bad decision in sticking with the ACO's idiotic spec-car P2s and then is making it worse by trying to paint the DPi as a manufacturer class. If they'd done the right thing and given the ACO the finger a year ago this would not be so much of a problem.

Whatever decisions have or have not been made, there's always gonna be politics in that series.

Because all of the P2 owners are willing and able to spend millions on cars that may win in the ELMS but have absolutely no chance of success at Le Mans, which is what these people are really racing in the ELMS for.

The same people raced in LMS for almost a decade, always behind LMP1 (factory and privateer) and were happy.

The real problem is that ever since 2011/12 they've been lured into thinking they are the first-catered class, which they shouldn't be.

Chiana, really, you know better on the LMP1 Privateer point - its dead, its not coming back, if it was going to come back the teams being pushed around in the LMP2 category would be trying to do it but none of them can make the economics work. Having them be the top class in ELMS or IMSA would just be screwing everyone else there aside from the one or two incredibly rich teams who can afford them.

The economics don't work because they are forced to run in one series, you can't create customer market on that. Budgets would run lower too if they (or most of them) would do ELMS+LM instead of WEC and being behind factories in every race paying big euros.

It wouldn't work in IMSA but it could in ELMS (again).

[Maelochs]

First off, I cannot see any benefit to ELMS to let P1-L into the field. The P2 teams have their own little playground, the rich guys get to have all the fun they want, and maybe even get a shot at a win or podium.

Let in three P1-L cars and suddenly P2 is first-loser class.

Besides, why would any team which could afford a P1-L want a P1-L? To get embarrassed at WEC? If you can do P1-L you can get all the same benefits by running P2.

On top of that, why even mess with ELMS, which seems to be doing things right these last several years (since its near-bankruptcy.)

As for IMSA telling FIA-ACO to eff off ... and run what? Which factories are cranking out prototype chassis which aren’t LMP2? Right now there are a few companies which could make more Gen3 DPs ... wouldn’t that be wonderful?

Which other manufacturers have even show any interest in designing and building cars just for IMSA? And you would need to have at least three ... or two, like we have now (basically DP-clones and Ligier (whoops, three ... I forgot Lola, who is out of business. (And yes, I know Multimatic bought the remnants ... how many new cars are they building?)))

Which two chassis manufacturers are falling all over themselves to design, test, and then manufacture cars for a series with maybe (Maybe) four potential customers, and absolutely no chance of using the chassis anywhere else in the world?

IndyCar tried this, and they found that lots of companies were willing to build eight or ten IndyCar chassis ... but not at a price the teams could afford. Now cut the customer base in half, and how do the economics work out?

What I see here is people simply refusing to learn from the errors of the past, and willing to ignore all common sense to try to revive some “Golden Age” when they seem to forget, there was a Lot more money floating around.

Might I point out that what so many are asking for ... was Exactly the Rolex Sports Car Series. Cars which were unique to the series, nothing to do with FIA-ACO .... yeah, that worked out. Almost everyone hated it and it would have gone completely broke without huge helpings of NASCAR money. Most people here hated the cars ... and except for minor differences, the cars were identical.

Yeah, DP1 is really DP Gen4 ... but the differences are huge. For one thing, the base chassis is actually a modern chassis. For another thing, the manufacturers are all committed to the class, because they are also building cars for LMP2 series (WEC, ELMS, AsLMS) which means they aren’t going to go away soon, (one of them might ... depends who buys what) and also, this brings the price down.

I hear a lot of what I consider to be really bad plans ... mostly people saying, “We should do exactly what has failed so badly repeatedly in the past.” I see people saying “The economics would work out” but I don’t see anyone offering evidence of How they would work out.

Look, I don’t want DPi .... the only thing I want less would be 2017 LMP2. But I Do want a financially viable, fan-rewarding North American sports car series, so I can go watch some races.

Most people here are at least familiar what IndyCar went through with its split, which lasted even longer and also did huge damage. IndyCar fans are a lot like sports car fans, it seems ... they all love some particular period from the past, and want somehow for the series to time-warp back to that era, while magically finding the hundreds of millions of dollars needed to fund the changes.

The few reasonable fans realize that IndyCar has to start from where it is—not many fans, not many sponsors—and slowly build, adding in as much design freedom and variety as possible without overtaxing the teams or destroying the racing so that the fans simply stop caring.

IMSA is in a similar situation.

Yeah, we all wish we could have a North American version of WEC, except with six more factory teams in P1, with GTLM not getting screwed up, and even more manufacturers joining there (Maserati, McLaren, Lamborghini, and a fill-time Aston team would be nice.) Maybe P2, no need for P3 or PC because the grids would be full of better cars. Huge fan attendance trackside, gigantic TV ratings, more sponsorship dollars than the teams or series can spend.

Nice fantasy. And it might even happen, someday ... but right now, IMSA, which was literally on life support just a couple seasons ago and is just starting to look even mildly healthy, doesn’t have a lot of good business options.

IMO.

[Matt]

Just because they wouldn't be aligned with the ACO, doesn't mean they couldn't use the 4 new P2 chassis in their series.

IIRC, IMSA in the 80's and 90's wasn't an ACO series, yet used ACO style cars that were heavily modified if you so chose.

Nothing is stopping the same thing from happening. IMSA would set it's rules up to include the 4 designated P2 chassis, along with anyone else willing to build a car for the ruleset.

I'm bd with explaining things through text, so I hope that made sense.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

First off, I cannot see any benefit to ELMS to let P1-L into the field.

First off, "P1-L" as terminology no longer exists

The P2 teams have their own little playground, the rich guys get to have all the fun they want, and maybe even get a shot at a win or podium. Let in three P1-L cars and suddenly P2 is first-loser class.

Oh just like the LMP1 privateer was when it was banned from ELMS and all the other regional series in the first place?

Of course, at the start, there would be some crying from the teams, and maybe losing couple of cars. But you need to think of the categories on long term, and beyond just ELMS.

The primary reason ELMS still gets strong backing is because of luring ACO to give them the Le Mans invites, and the LMP2s would still have that in their dedicated class. Beyond that, they would still get the same prize money, class championships and LM auto invites at the end of the year, just not the overall honors (unless the P1s melted from the top or Hungaroring 2010 happened again).

The P2s would still be the top class in ASLMS. Why can't LMP1 privateer be the top in at least something, instead of meaningless WEC sub class no-one cares about? Why is it that LMP2 is allowed to get all the protection it can get, but LMP1 not? Before 2012, LMP2 couldn't even win any series overall, and suddenly it's some kind of sacrilege to even suggest blocking just one of those routes?

Wouldn't the overall top placed prototype classification be quite neat actually, in the much-talked "pyramid of endurance"?
WEC - LMP1 Hybrid
ELMS - LMP1 Non Hybrid
ASLMS - LMP2
ASLMS Sprint - LMP3

And then obviously IMSA with it's weirdo P2 mess again. That's still plenty of reason to purchase LMP2 of choice.

Besides, why would any team which could afford a P1-L want a P1-L? To get embarrassed at WEC? If you can do P1-L you can get all the same benefits by running P2.

No you won't.

- Quaranteed LM entry
- No proam driver restriction force feed crap
- No spec chassis force feed crap
- No spec component force feed crap
- No spec engine force feed crap
- No $$$ cost cap force feed crap
- No freezed specs technology and denied innovative development force feed crap

And why do you think I'm saying they should be in ELMS (in addition to WEC if they want)... because there they wouldn't be "embarrassed", on top of the other reasons incl having that customer market finally available and teams capable of scoring overall wins.

The only thing LMP1 privateer and LMP2 really share in open-ness are the tires, and lack of inter-class BoP.

On top of that, why even mess with ELMS, which seems to be doing things right these last several years (since its near-bankruptcy.)

You do remember what the next few years are going to bring to LMP2, right?

In any case, there is no danger from this series "credibility perspective" even if you only ended up having couple of cars in your lead class for a while. It's a series under 99,9% peoples radar.

[YZFrider]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

What I see here is people simply refusing to learn from the errors of the past, and willing to ignore all common sense to try to revive some “Golden Age” when they seem to forget, there was a Lot more money floating around.

Maybe so, and I get that a more free formula ala LMP1 was getting crazy expensive and fields started shrinking. Funny thing is, that droves of fans still flocked to the ALMS races. I understand sponsorship is what pays the bills more so than ticket sales. But, if there is not a product that attracts people to the races or glues eyes to the TV, then you have no sponsorship. Sort of a catch 22. Lets look at what does work (GTLM) or for that matter GT3 and why its been successful for so long. Granted it's had it's tweaks but you need to in order to progress and sustain a healthy class. Study it, learn from it, and apply that to a prototype class.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Might I point out that what so many are asking for ... was Exactly the Rolex Sports Car Series. Cars which were unique to the series, nothing to do with FIA-ACO .... yeah, that worked out. Almost everyone hated it and it would have gone completely broke without huge helpings of NASCAR money. Most people here hated the cars ... and except for minor differences, the cars were identical.

I do believe that a unique class doesn't necesarily make an unlikable class. What made DP's unlikable were slow speeds, quiet motors, ugly looks (nothing exciting the senses). No development...honestly, did they gain much speed throughout the years? Not really...so that just breads stagnation. But the biggest turn off was the mandate that this was the premier class. Remember their introduction? They got rid of the GTS class that had fast and exciting cars because they knew they would blow the doors off the DPs. What else happened? Oh they mandated that the DP's start at the front row even though they had a slower qualifying speed than the restricted GT class cars. Restrictions went further on to make the new (even slower) GT class essentially the Super Grand Sport class from the Street Stock series. It's why Grand-Am got described as a "glorified club series". Say what you will about fans fantasies, but we know with certain heads in charge of the series, it's as if we can brainstorm better ideas/decisions than they do. It feels bad watching something come true when everybody predicted it so.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I hear a lot of what I consider to be really bad plans ... mostly people saying, “We should do exactly what has failed so badly repeatedly in the past.” I see people saying “The economics would work out” but I don’t see anyone offering evidence of How they would work out.

Sort of ties in to my first post above. GTLM allows some development (not the free for all that LMP1 was) and still puts out a good product. Can we do the same for P class?

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Look, I don’t want DPi .... the only thing I want less would be 2017 LMP2. But I Do want a financially viable, fan-rewarding North American sports car series, so I can go watch some races.

I won't lie I was excited about the concept of GT3 engines in approved P2 chassis. It's what attracts me to sportscar racing, diversity! However...the series organizer can really kill the buzz with their intrusive BOP (they really need to cut that out)or it will scare fans away and probably teams too.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Most people here are at least familiar what IndyCar went through with its split, which lasted even longer and also did huge damage. IndyCar fans are a lot like sports car fans, it seems ... they all love some particular period from the past, and want somehow for the series to time-warp back to that era, while magically finding the hundreds of millions of dollars needed to fund the changes.

The few reasonable fans realize that IndyCar has to start from where it is—not many fans, not many sponsors—and slowly build, adding in as much design freedom and variety as possible without overtaxing the teams or destroying the racing so that the fans simply stop caring.

IMSA is in a similar situation.

Yeah, we all wish we could have a North American version of WEC, except with six more factory teams in P1, with GTLM not getting screwed up, and even more manufacturers joining there (Maserati, McLaren, Lamborghini, and a fill-time Aston team would be nice.) Maybe P2, no need for P3 or PC because the grids would be full of better cars. Huge fan attendance trackside, gigantic TV ratings, more sponsorship dollars than the teams or series can spend.

Nice fantasy. And it might even happen, someday ... but right now, IMSA, which was literally on life support just a couple seasons ago and is just starting to look even mildly healthy, doesn’t have a lot of good business options.

IMO.

I appreciate the situation IMSA is in and I agree with what you say. But man the confidence I get from who's in charge isn't helpful with their history of decision making. At least IndyCar started somewhat fresh with new people (Derrick Walker talks about his trials of balancing the wants and needs of Teams vs Fans in a nice article from RACER: http://www.racer.com/indycar/item/11...=&limitstart=2) Where is Walker now? In PWC, a series that definitely has hit on something, made OK to good management decisions so far, listens to its customers, partnered with smart and diverse business people (Ratel) and has a ceiling of potential that for the forseeable future has no limit. Something they are doing is right

[Rcz]

Can't just go back to the good old days where you print some rules in a pdf and give them to the manufacturers for them to build. Instead you have some kabuki dance and a sacrificial ritual with the aco just to get it on the track.

Look, I'll give the DPi cars a chance.


I just want incredible fast cool looking cars.

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

As for IMSA telling FIA-ACO to eff off ... and run what? Which factories are cranking out prototype chassis which aren’t LMP2? Right now there are a few companies which could make more Gen3 DPs ... wouldn’t that be wonderful?

Against the spec P2s, and with the improving looks and rather greater speed of the current DPs? Yeah, I think I'll take that, thank you. I may be in the minority, but perhaps some of that is because some people here are still ticked that the merged series didn't dump everything about Grand-Am in the trash can on day one.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Which other manufacturers have even show any interest in designing and building cars just for IMSA? And you would need to have at least three ... or two, like we have now (basically DP-clones and Ligier (whoops, three ... I forgot Lola, who is out of business. (And yes, I know Multimatic bought the remnants ... how many new cars are they building?)))

Who knows? One doesn't know what's gonna happen until one tries, do they? If you make the rules right, you can get companies willing to fight amongst themselves to make cars even for a relatively small class. The original DP, and then the post-2010 LMP2 and LMP3 categories several years later, proved that. Beyond that, as I'm sure you've gathered, I'm not anticipating privateer prototypes to have much of a future when the choices are either spec cars or giving your accountant cardiac arrest.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

What I see here is people simply refusing to learn from the errors of the past, and willing to ignore all common sense to try to revive some “Golden Age” when they seem to forget, there was a Lot more money floating around.

What we have coming here is effectively a joke. Either get into bed with a manufacturer or get stuck with a spec car. I can tell you what'll happen to most of the interest in that scenario - they'll buy GT3 cars, and probably get more use racing them in IMSA, World Challenge AND special events like the 25 Hours of Thunderhill and whenever the SRO's American sports car challenge gets underway. You can call this a compromise if you wish, but if this is all the prototypes we can get, can them and go GT racing, because these cars will make promoting a product that can grow the sport pretty close to impossible.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Might I point out that what so many are asking for ... was Exactly the Rolex Sports Car Series. Cars which were unique to the series, nothing to do with FIA-ACO .... yeah, that worked out. Almost everyone hated it and it would have gone completely broke without huge helpings of NASCAR money. Most people here hated the cars ... and except for minor differences, the cars were identical.

And you know what? Flaws and all, the DPs WORKED. They did EXACTLY what they were supposed to do, grow interest in the sport from entrants who otherwise might not have ever stepped into the big leagues. The DP was designed to be cheap and tough because that kept running costs to a minimum. What prototype class in 2003-2004 did that? Before then, Grand-Am was stuck with WSC-era cars for the most part, and IMSA's privateer prototype ranks were nearly non-existent aside from Dyson and Intersport. The DP was meant to change that situation....and it did just that. So much so that the cost-controlled idea got copied by the ACO six years later, just in their form.

And if Grand Am had wanted to go faster, they could have. When the merger was happening, the original plan was to close the gap between the P2 and DP racers by speeding the DPs some and slowing the P2s some. Then Spirit of Daytona went out with their tuned-up Coyote at Road Atlanta and blew that idea to hell. I'd wager if you were willing to spend more money, you could probably pick up the pace on the DP a lot more - more power, sticker tires, larger wings and more underfloor aero, seven-speed gearboxes, you get the idea. It was just costs that didn't need to be. If you put a NASCAR motor in the back of a DP and strengthened the drivetrain to handle it, that alone would probably blow a P2 car into the weeds. The slower pace was for cost reasons, nothing more.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Yeah, DP1 is really DP Gen4 ... but the differences are huge. For one thing, the base chassis is actually a modern chassis.

Go look at a DP before you make this statement. I have, and the only bloody similarity between a DP and any stock car or Trans Am car or anything else is the basic idea. That's where the idea stops. The tube-frame setup was done for cost reasons as well, namely if you have a big wreck you can cut off pieces and replace them without compromising the rest of the chassis, which is often not possible with race cars built from carbon tubs.

Seriously, this "the DPs are ancient technology!" crap has got to stop. People who have actually looked at the things without seeking to make fun of them know better. Yes, they are tube-framed cars. But so are Class Ones outside of the center tub. So are a lot of GT cars. So were most road-going supercars until only the last ten years.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

For another thing, the manufacturers are all committed to the class, because they are also building cars for LMP2 series (WEC, ELMS, AsLMS) which means they aren’t going to go away soon, (one of them might ... depends who buys what) and also, this brings the price down.

1) At least one of the makers got that position by nepotism, which is NEVER, EVER acceptable, no matter who does it.

2) Several makers of chassis were put out of business for arbitrary reasons, and their interest in the sport either eliminated or massively reduced as a result. Does running interest out of the sport seem in any way, shape or form intelligent? If one chassis or engine becomes dominant due to natural selection, that's fine. But doing it because French chassis builders want to make money is ludicrously stupid.

3) The reduced price is a fantasy. Oreca and Onroak have all but said so. The new cars will be no cheaper, and I'll be surprised if the engines are cheaper either, because Gibson has to make up for all the money they lost when they could no longer do chassis for any form of ACO racing unless they want to bankrupt themselves in P1 cars. So the cheaper point holds no water.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I hear a lot of what I consider to be really bad plans ... mostly people saying, “We should do exactly what has failed so badly repeatedly in the past.” I see people saying “The economics would work out” but I don’t see anyone offering evidence of How they would work out.

I have said at every single opportunity that I would maintain what is out there now until such time as I could make the economics of my arguments work. I don't see it as impossible to make a Class One-style chassis (or event just the Class One tub itself, built by an American manufacturer) at such a price point that it could be used by IMSA teams. It gives the advantages of the DP - cheaper cost, greater toughness and greater ease of repair - while getting all of the safety and strength of a carbon tub race car. Until one could arrange that, however, stick with what's out there now rather than doom teams to spending millions on spec cars for which they'll eventually end up getting stomped on by the factories or ignored by the fans. My firm belief is that sports car racing's transition from prototypes in Grand Touring cars is inevitable in any case, so get ahead of the curve for once.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Look, I don’t want DPi .... the only thing I want less would be 2017 LMP2. But I Do want a financially viable, fan-rewarding North American sports car series, so I can go watch some races.

You're advocating for something that will struggle from the start and eventually end in complete failure, and no more than four years down the road. Why? Because that's what the ACO does? They've taken enough dumps on IMSA. They killed P1 in the ALMS with the WEC and gave no help whatsoever in trying to fill the hole that created, which directly led to Panoz selling out to Jim France to save his series from a likely failure. They moaned and complained when the lighter Porsches and Acuras could and did beat mighty Audi. They never gave two poops about the privateer racers until that was all the ALMS had, and didn't care much even then, and only had a willingness to work with the ALMS after the first time they tried a joint event if the ALMS turned over their biggest single race to them. They've been forcing out attempts by manufacturers to beat their competition in unorthodox-but-legal ways since 2002. Why, exactly, would IMSA want to work with these people? Because of allowing a handful of teams to go to Le Mans? Is that worth screwing up the series' schedule and rewriting the rules to suit an organization that clearly has little consideration for privateer racers and is NEVER willing to accept that maybe somebody has a better idea than they do?

Originally Posted by Maelochs

The few reasonable fans realize that IndyCar has to start from where it is—not many fans, not many sponsors—and slowly build, adding in as much design freedom and variety as possible without overtaxing the teams or destroying the racing so that the fans simply stop caring.

IMSA is in a similar situation.

IMSA is indeed in a similar situation, but you and others here are advocating they turn over most of their design freedom to the ACO and pass over control of the destiny of its top prototype class, a form of racing already living on borrowed time, to an organization which sees them as at best useful idiots. They are running manufacturers who have been in the sport for in some cases decades out so that Oreca and Onroak and Dallara can make more money.

IMSA in this situation needs MORE freedom for what the ACO demands, no less. If they must go the prototype route - and I'm willing to say quite only that they shouldn't - they need to be able to let anybody who wants to make a DPi make one, allow the manufacturers to modify the bodywork in any way they dang well please, and allow teams to drop whatever engine fits in the back of their cars. In a BoP series, there is no excuse whatsoever for limiting design freedom as they have. They need to be able to make what the fans want to see and what the teams want to race, not follow the edict of the corrupt, arrogant organization in France that spends far more time and effort trying to grow its showcase event and the two series that directly feed it with 80% of its entries - the WEC and ELMS.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Nice fantasy. And it might even happen, someday ... but right now, IMSA, which was literally on life support just a couple seasons ago and is just starting to look even mildly healthy, doesn’t have a lot of good business options.

Indeed it doesn't, but what they are doing now isn't working, and doing a mildly-changed prototype class (because they aren't going to end up being much different from current P2s) isn't going to help. If they were serious about building for the future, they could be planning a big-bore GT class, because any prototype class they come up with will forever live in the shadow of the WEC, and IMSA is far too costly to be a feeder series to anyone. Atherton I don't think doesn't know this, but he still believes that he can grow ACO racing stateside and make a real contribution to worldwide sports car racing from North America.

That's a fantasy, always has been, always will be.

IMSA is better off on their own, and better off using what international formulas work for them. GTE and GT3 most certainly do and it shows in the numbers and caliber of those involved.

LMP2, especially the sort of LMP2 cars that will race in the ELMS and WEC next year, do not. And the longer they let this situation stand, the more it will hurt them.

It's time to move on.

IMO.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by Chiana

First off, "P1-L" as terminology no longer exists

Oh just like the LMP1 privateer was when it was banned from ELMS and all the other regional series in the first place?

Of course, at the start, there would be some crying from the teams, and maybe losing couple of cars. But you need to think of the categories on long term, and beyond just ELMS.

The primary reason ELMS still gets strong backing is because of luring ACO to give them the Le Mans invites, and the LMP2s would still have that in their dedicated class. Beyond that, they would still get the same prize money, class championships and LM auto invites at the end of the year, just not the overall honors (unless the P1s melted from the top or Hungaroring 2010 happened again).

The P2s would still be the top class in ASLMS. Why can't LMP1 privateer be the top in at least something, instead of meaningless WEC sub class no-one cares about? Why is it that LMP2 is allowed to get all the protection it can get, but LMP1 not? Before 2012, LMP2 couldn't even win any series overall, and suddenly it's some kind of sacrilege to even suggest blocking just one of those routes?

Wouldn't the overall top placed prototype classification be quite neat actually, in the much-talked "pyramid of endurance"?
WEC - LMP1 Hybrid
ELMS - LMP1 Non Hybrid
ASLMS - LMP2
ASLMS Sprint - LMP3

And then obviously IMSA with it's weirdo P2 mess again. That's still plenty of reason to purchase LMP2 of choice.



No you won't.

- Quaranteed LM entry
- No proam driver restriction force feed crap
- No spec chassis force feed crap
- No spec component force feed crap
- No spec engine force feed crap
- No $$$ cost cap force feed crap
- No freezed specs technology and denied innovative development force feed crap

And why do you think I'm saying they should be in ELMS (in addition to WEC if they want)... because there they wouldn't be "embarrassed", on top of the other reasons incl having that customer market finally available and teams capable of scoring overall wins.

The only thing LMP1 privateer and LMP2 really share in open-ness are the tires, and lack of inter-class BoP.

You do remember what the next few years are going to bring to LMP2, right?

In any case, there is no danger from this series "credibility perspective" even if you only ended up having couple of cars in your lead class for a while. It's a series under 99,9% peoples radar.

I'm startled ACO hasnt announced LMP1 privateers as the top class of ELMS yet, for 2017 when LMP2 goes spec its really the logical choise. We have seen that ACO is not stupid, for LMP1 to survive they need the privateers, and for the LMP1 privateer market to thrive the LMP1 cars needs to be in more then just WEC. ELMS is the perfect place for them to be. And I honestly think that in 2017 and 2018 when LMP2 goes spec ELMS will need LMP1 privateers also, LMP2 will be way too restrictive to suit everyone.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

I'm startled ACO hasnt announced LMP1 privateers as the top class of ELMS yet, for 2017 when LMP2 goes spec its really the logical choise. We have seen that ACO is not stupid, for LMP1 to survive they need the privateers, and for the LMP1 privateer market to thrive the LMP1 cars needs to be in more then just WEC. ELMS is the perfect place for them to be. And I honestly think that in 2017 and 2018 when LMP2 goes spec ELMS will need LMP1 privateers also, LMP2 will be way too restrictive to suit everyone.

Yes!

I think the most shocking thing among "fixing LMP1 Privateer" discussion is that no team has made public suggestion towards re-expanding LMP1 beyond WEC. Even though Rebellion has said they could potentially look at ELMS with forced P2 switch in the future if it meant the chance of being to win overall again.

But I bet/fear at this pace by 2019 or whenever you will still have just WEC eligible for them, and you have two car grid running to much more restricted cost cap rules 10 seconds off the pace of factories, only to be dumbed down with "DPi" at Le Mans

[TF110]

Reintroducing p1 to elms would probably hurt the fact they have all those p2 entries. Not to mention that there's going to be that 4 chassis constructor limit to choose from. That's not going to force those semi-pro teams to p1. Then the driving standards comes into play as well. Plus the aco need those guys to fall back on if lmp1-h loses a manufacturer.

[Ephaeton]

We just can't have a discussion about IMSA DPi, can we?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Ephaeton

We just can't have a discussion about IMSA DPi, can we?

Nope, no matter how many times it gets steered back that direction!








L.P.

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by Ephaeton

We just can't have a discussion about IMSA DPi, can we?

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Nope, no matter how many times it gets steered back that direction!

L.P.

Don't look at me on that one, every post I've made has something to do with the DPi.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Ephaeton

We just can't have a discussion about IMSA DPi, can we?

The same reason people rather talk about weather instead of taxes or holocaust to half-strangers, it's not quite as depressing?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

- No test day conflict is because a series that caters to Detroit automakers kinda wants to race in Detroit. Not all that hard to understand.

I've never ever understood this point. I've read it lots, but it doesn't make sense.

There is no reason why Detroit HAS to conflict with the Le Mans test day. I understand wanting to run Detroit, but is there some reason it HAS to be the same day as the Le Mans test?

And if it was that big a deal, why isn't GTLM going? A series wants to cater to Detroit automakers. Two of those are GM and Ford, and yet the works cars won't be there? I'm sure they feel REALLY catered for, not getting to race there.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I've never ever understood this point. I've read it lots, but it doesn't make sense.

There is no reason why Detroit HAS to conflict with the Le Mans test day. I understand wanting to run Detroit, but is there some reason it HAS to be the same day as the Le Mans test?

And if it was that big a deal, why isn't GTLM going? A series wants to cater to Detroit automakers. Two of those are GM and Ford, and yet the works cars won't be there? I'm sure they feel REALLY catered for, not getting to race there.

It's that weekend as it's where Indycar wants it to be, and that series cares even less of ACO than IMSA-NASCAR does

GM and Ford have their fake proto brandings in the lead class so they don't necessarily need the GTEs there

[Akrapovic]

And between IMSA and IndyCar they can't work out how to move a date if it was THAT important to the car makers?

I'm sure Ford and Chevy would like to show off their GT Cars too, especially with the money sunk into the Ford GT and the Le Mans effort.

Basically, this big amazing Detroit race that is to cater for the big makers doesn't actually seem to be that important when you look at the whole package. If it was that important then we'd have a different weekend and we'd have GTLM there too. Chevy would love the potential of a win in P, PC (by default), GTLM and maybe even GTD too.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

And between IMSA and IndyCar they can't work out how to move a date if it was THAT important to the car makers?

I'm sure Ford and Chevy would like to show off their GT Cars too, especially with the money sunk into the Ford GT and the Le Mans effort.

Basically, this big amazing Detroit race that is to cater for the big makers doesn't actually seem to be that important when you look at the whole package. If it was that important then we'd have a different weekend and we'd have GTLM there too. Chevy would love the potential of a win in P, PC (by default), GTLM and maybe even GTD too.

I don't think ICS cares rats ass about IMSA either, they are just support event filling the timetable

[Maelochs]

Actually .... Ford and Chevy realize that in terms of advertising impact, racing in Detroit is the same as not racing in Detroit, but racing at Le Mans plays a small part in their annual advertising strategy.-----DPi.

As Akrapovic notes, IndyCar (and mostly Roger Penske, who was the prime mover for the race) determines the date of the event; IMSA just piggy-backs along just to take advantage of the availability of the course (and because it is such a great market .... "America's Urban Appalachia" I think, is the region's motto.) ----------DPi.

As for why people still dream of a better future for P1-L (or whatever FIA has decided to call it this season, I truly don't care .... ) I don't see any logic in any of these proposals. I don't see any teams asking for it, and right now in The Entire World there are only three on track ... and rarely that many.----DPi.

ELMS could add the class, and screw with what is (right now) working well for it ... and the predictions of doom and gloom next season seem unfounded, as their really is only one engine supplier and four chassis as it stands. I don't understand the rush to break what isn't .... oh, we're talking sports car racing. My bad.---------DPi.

Other than that, I can't really think of much else that warrants discussion.

[Deleted]

I'll ask you again in moments time when you will see the top class of ELMS consisting solely of like 5 clone proam Orecas and 7 clone proam Onroaks, all running Zytek power

[joeb]

When do we think somebody is actually going to announce their DPi plans for next year? I'm still waiting for an announcement from a manufacturer saying:

"we have used the Riley/Dallara/Oak/Oreca chassis and designed our bodywork to fit. We will be running 2 cars with Team X in the IMSA Weathertech Championship"

Also, could we get an official rendering?

[Coach Ep]

I fully expect Mazda's announcement at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca.

And GM/Cadillac at Detroit of all places.

After that, all of our patience will be tested hard I'm afraid...

[YZFrider]

Let me ask all of you a two questions related to DPi.

1. Do you want to continue to see the race by race BOP? Yes or No

2. Do you want to see standard torque and power curve for the engines? Yes or No

And give me your reasons why.

Go!