[Team] Haas: Gene Haas of NASCAR attempting to start F1 team

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mixer

I can't see any chance at all that Haas will be on the grid in 2015.

I assume the idea was that Haas might have a "dev" car (updated Marussia) running (not racing) in 2015 with a 2015 Ferrari PSU? What are the regulations regard testing prior to entering the series? Is Haas bound by any of that? Can a Haas car be considered a test mule for the 2015 Ferrari PSU?

With all of that being said, I doubt we will see any type of Haas car turning a wheel until late in 2015. I think the Marussia purchase was just to get the IP (I believe Haas has said they eventually want to design/build their own car). If I was Haas and the IP was a bargain, I would buy it. They might also have obtained other data as well (such as race/track data).

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Richard the problem is this.

Mclaren or Ferrari's last year's car is going to be better than what any of the lower teams can come up with.

If you can easily get a car like that, you'll score more points than someone who tries to create their own car, so why try?

F1 will be like champcar in no time, only a couple of chassis and then only 1.

Oh, I get it. In general I agree. But there will always someone with deep pockets who will build their own and do a better job of it. I don't thing it has to inevitably follow the Indy car path. Also, I think there is more than just owning a good chassis. I think if you gave a Mercedes chassis to a lower team they would immediately jump up, but would they beat Mercedes? Occasionally maybe, but on average no. What I really think it would hurt is the second tier constructors. But they walk the edge of destruction even as things are today. I don't think customer cars is the solution, but only that it could be made to work. It would have positive and negative impacts.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mixer

I can't see any chance at all that Haas will be on the grid in 2015.

I thought Haas wasn't going racing until 2016?

[old man]

How do we know Haas has bought the Marrusia chassis?

If he has then I agree with the try before you enter principle, very sound idea if he can get his hands the power unit

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by old man

How do we know Haas has bought the Marrusia chassis?

If he has then I agree with the try before you enter principle, very sound idea if he can get his hands the power unit

From previously published time-lines by the liquidator/administrator, the chassis were not due to be auctioned until 21 January 2015. This would therefore suggest that Haas could not have bought it/them yet.

[climb]

From what I know, Haas just bought CFD cluster and a few other devices, taking profit of low prices

[climb]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I thought Haas wasn't going racing until 2016?

Your thought is exact

[climb]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Richard the problem is this.

Mclaren or Ferrari's last year's car is going to be better than what any of the lower teams can come up with....

Not very sure

[climb]

Originally Posted by old man

The more I read about Mr Haas the more I think he is, shall we say, underestimating the task?

Well, to say the thruth, he's very experienced about running a costly and complex activity in Motor Racing, so I would hardly agree with you on that

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by climb

Well, to say the thruth, he's very experienced about running a costly and complex activity in Motor Racing, so I would hardly agree with you on that

NASCAR is complex but isn't complex compared to F1 and he will likely eventually fall flat on his face if he does materialise on the grid. I mean most new entrants do. Not them all, but most. The way people are mesmerised by this chap as being somehow being exceptional is unreal.

[old man]

I would tend to agree with the Paradise City view, NASCAR seems to me to tell them exactly what to do and whilst we complain about the tightness of F1 regulations looking at the cars on display at the Autosport show there are lots of subtle variations on the design. Then there are the other variables in strategy within F1. You may well be correct in what you say about his ability to cope with the complexity of F1 and prove us wrong but in the end it will not be Mr Haas who gets the detail right it will be his engineers and strategists so a great deal will depend on who he recruits, that of course is the strength of great leaders, they build good teams.

If he does do a deal that lets him try a Marrussia based mule he will be heading towards proving his strength IMO

The Marrusia sale is still advertised on the website for the 21st Jan

[climb]

We shouldn't forget that every Nascar team... is a double one, since the races are so tightly scheduled. Each driver has 2 cars, 2 teams of mechanics etc.
Every team has got 2 planes to transport cars and spares all around the States.

And from the technical point of view, Aerodynamics is nothing less than F1, particularly for the CFd aspects.

IMO It's curious how some fans on the European side tend to underrate the complexity of managing a Nascar outfit.

[old man]

Originally Posted by climb

We shouldn't forget that every Nascar team... is a double one, since the races are so tightly scheduled. Each driver has 2 cars, 2 teams of mechanics etc.
Every team has got 2 planes to transport cars and spares all around the States.

And from the technical point of view, Aerodynamics is nothing less than F1, particularly for the CFd aspects.

IMO It's curious how some fans on the European side tend to underrate the complexity of managing a Nascar outfit.

Accept what you say, I really have no doubt that just as NASCAR fans have little knowledge of F1 my knowledge of NASCAR is rather limited. What I think we fail to understand is the sheer scale of the operations and we can only envy the spectator numbers and income generation that goes with it.

I watch it occasionally on satellite and would appreciate more background info. Am I correct in thinking the technical regulations are very tight and engines a little old school?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

From previously published time-lines by the liquidator/administrator, the chassis were not due to be auctioned until 21 January 2015. This would therefore suggest that Haas could not have bought it/them yet.

The print version of Autosport this week carries an advert for the auction on 21st. It includes '2 x 2014 Grand Prix cars', so that checks out.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

The print version of Autosport this week carries an advert for the auction on 21st. It includes '2 x 2014 Grand Prix cars', so that checks out.

Thanks for that, Mike.

It really doesn't seem to make much sense to me that Haas would want to buy last year's cars anyway. They weren't in any respect competitive and it is highly unlikely that they would be configured correctly to allow for the installation of the 2016 power-units which are likely (rather than possibly) to be radically different to the 2014 package. So for Haas to buy a 2014 chassis would seem to me to be a huge waste of money, especially as he would also need to buy/lease 2014 PSUs from Ferrari to use them on track.

As for the plans for Haas to buy Marussia's intended 2015 charger, I ask myself why? In all probability, if they even exist, are still on the (electronic) drawing-board, and one has to wonder to whom they belong. My best guess is that they had not been paid for by the time that the team went "t*ts-up", so I would imagine that the IP hadn't passed to them yet. And anyway, what real value would those concepts be, taking into consideration that their predecessors had been way off the mark. Unless they had started wind-tunnel work on the models (highly unlikely) and have proven to be viable, then they are worthless.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by old man

I watch it occasionally on satellite and would appreciate more background info. Am I correct in thinking the technical regulations are very tight and engines a little old school?

The technical regulations are extremely tight. There is very little that can be done as far as development is concerned.

The engines are very 'old school' if you're not an American. They are pushrod 358ci iron small blocks with aluminum heads. They switched from carbs to fuel injection a couple of years ago, but it's a primitive "cross ram" type system that replaces a carb and does not have injectors in the heads. They produce around 850-900hp. The only crossover I know of between a Cup car and F1 is piston speed. Because the Nascar small blocks are short stroke, large bore and turn over 9k RPM, the piston speeds are similar to F1.

The only thing I am 100% sure Haas F1 can handle is logistics. However, I don't know of any Nascar team that flys their equipment. It is all sent by truck. If you see a transporter on the road, it is usually screaming. They have "a long way to go and a short time to get there".

Edit - I forgot another crossover and that is McLaren produce the ECUs for Nascar.

[Casper]

For those not familiar with NASCAR and a bit of light reading, there was a comparison done between technical aspects of the F1 motor and the NASCAR motor back in 2006

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine..._cup_to_f1.htm

I know it is old but it makes interesting reading as most in Europe think NASCAR technically a dead end.

[Greem]

OT, I know, but...

Having had a drive in a real bona-fide NASCAR car (one of the 2009 Camping World Series East cars, I think) at Rockingham (UK) last year I can say that personally I don't care if they're a dead end or the latest greatest technical superlative thing; they are bloody exciting to drive even when limited to 5000rpm.

Sure, they've got the rear end off a truck but they sound epic and need some gentle persuasion to do the right thing. It certainly made me appreciate that NASCAR isn't all blood, guts and knuckles.

[wolfhound]

One major aspect of F1 I have not herd anything in relation to Haas is staff with suitable experience. He has Gunther Steiner as TD at the moment and the last time he had anyting to do with an F1 car was over ten years ago. After that I am unaware of him recruiting anybody with recent F1 experience. At this stage I would expect him to have a core team of people working on areas such as aero chassis etc.
While Nascar may have a lot of staff working of aero it is completely different to that of an open wheel single seater with a much more open rule book.
Another major difference between the majority of cars constructed in North America is their basic chassis construction as there are very few chassis produced there from carbon fibre comosites. There is however an extensive knowledge of this method of chassis construction in Europe.
The best place for Haas to search for some of the skills required might be the aerospace industry in the states but they will be short on the pace of development in F1.

[old man]

Lots of the things said in the posts above make me more certain that he could do a lot worse that buy the chassis. He will get them quite cheaply as they are of little use to anyone except a collector and if he could get hold of the PU etc it would be good research for his engineers if, as is said above, they have little recent F1 experience.

You simply can't do everything on CFD as they found at the start of the Manor team and some real practical running while he can do it could be very valuable.

At the Autosport Coy auction Manor were selling the ex Kimi F Renault we were told by auction staff

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

One major aspect of F1 I have not herd anything in relation to Haas is staff with suitable experience. He has Gunther Steiner as TD at the moment and the last time he had anyting to do with an F1 car was over ten years ago. After that I am unaware of him recruiting anybody with recent F1 experience. At this stage I would expect him to have a core team of people working on areas such as aero chassis etc.
While Nascar may have a lot of staff working of aero it is completely different to that of an open wheel single seater with a much more open rule book.
Another major difference between the majority of cars constructed in North America is their basic chassis construction as there are very few chassis produced there from carbon fibre comosites. There is however an extensive knowledge of this method of chassis construction in Europe.
The best place for Haas to search for some of the skills required might be the aerospace industry in the states but they will be short on the pace of development in F1.

Except a certain plant down in SC that multiple F1 teams have visited to investigate new, faster and lighter ways of laying up carbon fiber and has last I heard 25 engineers with extensive McLaren, only team mentioned by name specifically, and other F1 teams. The Boeing carbon wing plant and R&D center outside Savannah. My tech's college roommate works for them and has lost multiple coworkers back into motorsports so I think he's got a talent pool and good leads to pull a team together. Including whoever leaves F1 teams in the coming months.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Except a certain plant down in SC that multiple F1 teams have visited to investigate new, faster and lighter ways of laying up carbon fiber and has last I heard 25 engineers with extensive McLaren, only team mentioned by name specifically, and other F1 teams. The Boeing carbon wing plant and R&D center outside Savannah. My tech's college roommate works for them and has lost multiple coworkers back into motorsports so I think he's got a talent pool and good leads to pull a team together. Including whoever leaves F1 teams in the coming months.

I agree that there are companies in the USA that have a good knowledge of carbon fibre, but where it is applied to F1 car technology has limitations. I am thinking more in the way carbon fibre relates to other components of an F1 car in terms of loadings fixings stress etc. Somebody with a good knowledge of F1 cars would be aware of loading that a very good engineer from another disipline may not be aware of for example.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

I agree that there are companies in the USA that have a good knowledge of carbon fibre, but where it is applied to F1 car technology has limitations. I am thinking more in the way carbon fibre relates to other components of an F1 car in terms of loadings fixings stress etc. Somebody with a good knowledge of F1 cars would be aware of loading that a very good engineer from another disipline may not be aware of for example.

Turning that around would imply that Adrian Newey has a hard road and a lot to learn if he gets into boats? I really don't think it would present too many problems to a switched on engineer familiar with composites and who can use a calculator. Apart from that there are a lot of ex F1 guys working in the US who have this knowledge already.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by Casper

Turning that around would imply that Adrian Newey has a hard road and a lot to learn if he gets into boats? I really don't think it would present too many problems to a switched on engineer familiar with composites and who can use a calculator. Apart from that there are a lot of ex F1 guys working in the US who have this knowledge already.

Agood engineer will get there eventually regardless. Its just using people who have recent relevant experience should speed up the whole process and avoid going down blind allys.

[Greem]

Or bring personal doctrine to the new process, as they're locked into what they already know.