Nissan LMP1 Discussion

[Artur]

Richard Casto
excelent post! I'm aware that a lot of engineering projects(most, actually) requires muplitple experts and that the whole is so complex that no human being can master it all. Not even close to that

That's why I always hated the term "designer" assigned to F1 models. Motorspost Media, since 70s or 80's, uses to claim a car as a product of one genius mind, as if that guy was responsible for the design of the whole car. Even at Red Bull, Newey had Prodomou(or whatever his name spells), now at Mclaren(for all the Turd talking, I guess we can all agree this one qualifies for the term, although Honda is the element to blame) and his crew. It' not like he was pretty much everything even in the aero department.

For instance, here's a typical "designer" assignment:
http://www.statsf1.com/en/toleman-tg184.aspx
1984 Toleman assigned with only Byrne as the designer(this same thing happens to all cars in this site)

I always hated the typical comparisons like 'Newey vs Brawn/Byrne' exactly because one is comparing apples to oranges. Newey is the aero genius, the other two weren't even the guys responsible for Ferrari's aero(Tombazis was).

On topic, I agree with TzeiTzei. Renault has a horrible hybrid on F1 and I'm aware that might be related to the restrictions to evolve it, but I wonder if Renault really knows what are all the necessary fixes and changes in order to make it competitive and is willing to develop that to Nissan's LMP1 car?!

[Deleted]

Nissan probably finally realized their own hybrid was total unworkable garbage, and looked at the nearest, most realistic replacement in similar environment, and one used by their partners. The Renault style solution is... questionable, but it's not like it could be any worse than now.

Two cars only is disappointing, but unlike with Toyota whom are actually in contest for winning and have had the same policy for 5 years now, it's more understable here. As long as Nissan finish (actually finish, not fake finish) Le Mans and beat the non hybrids, while not being too far off the pace of works cars, I would call it succesful. Something like Oreca Peugeot in 2011 LM.

[wolfhound]

I suspect Nissan wanted something that was readily available and would fit into the current car design. By using Renault it being a sister brand they could probably learn a lot more about installation etc. than by using bits from various suppliers. I suspect it will also be a complete package from Renault.
It will also be an advantage to Renault as there are much less restrictions on LMP testing giving them a new pile of date to work through.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Nissan probably finally realized their own hybrid was total unworkable garbage, and looked at the nearest, most realistic replacement in similar environment, and one used by their partners. The Renault style solution is... questionable, but it's not like it could be any worse than now.

Two cars only is disappointing, but unlike with Toyota whom are actually in contest for winning and have had the same policy for 5 years now, it's more understable here. As long as Nissan finish (actually finish, not fake finish) Le Mans and beat the non hybrids, while not being too far off the pace of works cars, I would call it succesful. Something like Oreca Peugeot in 2011 LM.

The Renault situation in f1 is unique because theres limited freedoms to make improvements. There is no such restrictions in the wec. The battery may not be the problem, it could be the engine itself that Renault struggles with. Or it could be the ers-h. Just because Mercedes has everyone beat in one formula doesnt mean the competion is uncompetitive in others.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

The Renault situation in f1 is unique because theres limited freedoms to make improvements. There is no such restrictions in the wec. The battery may not be the problem, it could be the engine itself that Renault struggles with. Or it could be the ers-h. Just because Mercedes has everyone beat in one formula doesnt mean the competion is uncompetitive in others.

Fair enough. Though similarly, we may not know even next year whether the batteries itself are good or bad, since it is this car carrying them and no traditional LMP with known quantities.

[gustavobamba]

My question now is how many MJ did this system have... 4,6 or 8 MJ??!?!?!?!?

But honestly... lower then 6 MJ will not be good for lap times.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

My question now is how many MJ did this system have... 4,6 or 8 MJ??!?!?!?!?

But honestly... lower then 6 MJ will not be good for lap times.

If i remember correctly, the current systems in F1 would be equivelent of around 6MJ at LeMans, but someone will probably deliver the exact numbers.

Then the question is also, would a F1 style hybrid, that barely lasts 1.5h, stay together for the whole 24 hours? Would they need to detune it?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

If i remember correctly, the current systems in F1 would be equivelent of around 6MJ at LeMans, but someone will probably deliver the exact numbers.

Then the question is also, would a F1 style hybrid, that barely lasts 1.5h, stay together for the whole 24 hours? Would they need to detune it?

In theory it should be close, a fully functional F1 hybrid system would have to function for a quarter of a season including practice and qualifying sessions. However, at a similar pace to this year's Le Mans, that would only be the equivalent about 18-19 out of the 24 hours.

[gustavobamba]

If all the things are like suggested... they should detuned to 4MJ... i think that´s a good starting point but... they will still be to off the pace to the big 3.

[Artur]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

In theory it should be close, a fully functional F1 hybrid system would have to function for a quarter of a season including practice and qualifying sessions. However, at a similar pace to this year's Le Mans, that would only be the equivalent about 18-19 out of the 24 hours.

Not only this but, at Le Mans, you have to do 24h uninterruptedly while the F1 hybrid's life of 18-19h(time equivalent in km usage) is split between sessions.

I might be wrong but I think the continous stress might play a significant part on the reliability too

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

My question now is how many MJ did this system have... 4,6 or 8 MJ??!?!?!?!?

But honestly... lower then 6 MJ will not be good for lap times.

F1 power units run at an 4MJ per lap, although in theory they could run at 12MJ per lap of La Sarthe (from Andrew Cotton speaking to undisclosed F1 engineers). When you factor in (pun intended) the scaling for Le Mans the F1 hybrid systems recover more energy than Audi, sometimes more than Toyota, but never more than Porsche. So the figures are in the same ballpark and shouldn't need any particular changes brings getting it in the GT-R LMP1 and working with the not-Cossie ICE.

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by J Jay

F1 power units run at an 4MJ per lap, although in theory they could run at 12MJ per lap of La Sarthe (from Andrew Cotton speaking to undisclosed F1 engineers). When you factor in (pun intended) the scaling for Le Mans the F1 hybrid systems recover more energy than Audi, sometimes more than Toyota, but never more than Porsche. So the figures are in the same ballpark and shouldn't need any particular changes brings getting it in the GT-R LMP1 and working with the not-Cossie ICE.

Are you saying they could go 8 MJ... without major issue´s?!?!

With 8 MJ and "partial" 4wd while deploying at the rear axle... they should gain allot of time at Le Mans!!!!!!

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Are you saying they could go 8 MJ... without major issue´s?!?!

With 8 MJ and "partial" 4wd while deploying at the rear axle... they should gain allot of time at Le Mans!!!!!!

I'm not aware of the finer differences between the way ERS is handled in F1 and the WEC so I'm not saying it's definitely going to be 8MJ, just that the possibility is there because the two series are quite close in terms of their recovery and deployment figures. Don't forget that the MGU-H system won't as easily transferred as the MGU-K (if at all), which isn't exactly a doddle to mate with such a different ICE in the first place.

[YorkshireLad]

Awesomeness. We all like progress and I think this is a win win situation. Like said it gives Renault more time to develop and test the hybrids in fact I'm surprised zee Germans didn't think off this first.
Audi helping merc or maybe that was the plan.
Audi and red bull help each other cross referencing engine and hybrid abet not as good as an Renault-Nissan duo for P1 Renault hybrid and an Renault lotus cosworth-Nissan engined f1 car. (Smaller litre engine for f1)

[Keycube]

Originally Posted by YorkshireLad

Awesomeness. We all like progress and I think this is a win win situation.

Totally. As someone who is still mourning Peugeot's absence, the thought of French representation back at LeMans in a factory setting, warms my heart.

[TF110]

Dont forget these f1 engines run much more fuel flow per hour than the lmp1's. Id guess the ers-h is more powerful because of this. So the engines make more power since they have a higher flow. I dont see the ers-h working for lmp1 without major modification, especially in the Nissan with its packaging up front.

[gustavobamba]

https://translate.google.fr/translat...%2F&edit-text=

Testing new driver´s... new tires and new aero.

But not hybrid yet...

[YorkshireLad]

Is chilton staying with the Indy lights or heading for indycar?

I bet there still working their arses off to get this hybrid system built into the car.. Testing of that is realistically going to be end of Jan.

[Adam43]

Which won't be long before the Superbowl.

[YorkshireLad]

Can you see an advert happening again?

[gustavobamba]

Only running hybrid in February according to some sources!!!!!!!

Things look difficult again!!!!!!

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by YorkshireLad

Can you see an advert happening again?

Great days. Back when one of the worst things about the car was that it had too much white on it.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Only running hybrid in February according to some sources!!!!!!!

Things look difficult again!!!!!!

Toyota may not test until late January or Early February. So it may not be that bad. As long as it runs it'll be an improvement over last year!

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by TF110

Toyota may not test until late January or Early February. So it may not be that bad. As long as it runs it'll be an improvement over last year!

[YorkshireLad]

How effective is testing components of a car before it reaches its competed status? Surely everything acts different once a team adds the hybrid. Eg stresses, strains, handling characteristics and even aero component behaviour.