Nissan LMP1 Discussion

[S griffin]

I just feel what a waste, they did all that hard work and now they're just pulling out. They would have made a great addition (and they did)

[MagVanisher]

Well, Nismo sure got salty after failing their first and last race during the 24 Hours of Le Mans that they pulled out the program. Would it be better if they should do it by themselves instead of Ben Bowlby's team? But alas, it was too late for Nissan!

It's sad but they sure screw this LMP1 program up. Maybe in 2017 or 2018, they'll be back... or maybe not! Then again, they should try GTE instead!

[YorkshireLad]

What I want to know is if they've known since last Le Mans the car needed a revamp, what the hell was the team doing with all that time?? All we saw at the sept test was some holes hacked into the front and some dive plains and a new splitter... Then roll forward to NOLA all we saw was some different rubber. I know design takes time but if you've 40people working non stop they should of had some of the 16' car built? The articles say nothing was even produced for the new car.

[LC2guy]

Well at least it's winning races on Forza 6, I just watched my son use it to beat a whole grid of Le Mans winning cars (including Audi ) in rather cool Batman livery !!! Perhaps this was the point from the start, to engage the next generation with the cool Nissan brand, stuff the on track reality ....

[Coach Ep]

It was all about 'marketing' from the start - as could be seen with the Deltawing, it's biggest peak came when the car was stranded behind the wall with the (Japanese) driver desperately trying to re-enter the car onto the track. It probably was the most watched highlight clip from LM 2012. Maybe the driver's desperation convinced the Japanese board to give the new P1 project the green light?

One thing I feel hasn't been singled out so far: It seems the whole project was almost exclusively a Nissan team US team project (whatever their official name is or whatever you wanna call them), only with Nissan HQ in Japan providing the much needed financial backing for the 'racing side' of the project (with Nissan team US doing all the PR outings). The Superbowl ad (can it be more American?) was proof it was never about the racing in the first place - it was all about 'marketing' (brand awareness, image, etc.) and primarily/solely aimed at the US audience. The only reason Nissan decided to go the P1/WEC route was because of the marketing value of the Le Mans 24H - not because of the innovate technical potential available only in the world championship carried by sportscar racing's jewel in the crown...

Nissan HQ failed to realize what their US department real ambitions were until the project was well underway - they should have made Nissan team US join IMSA (which is offering a far better platform for their marketing needs anyway) instead.

O well...

[Keycube]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

It was all about 'marketing' from the start..."

Are you saying that (you think) performance was never a consideration with the car? Because by that definition, the venture was a success; after all, the car got lots of press...

That's why I've always had a problem with the "It's all about marketing" nonsense; was the car overhyped? Yep; but there's a caveat to that - if they had a reasonably consistent history of success in racing (read: McLaren & Honda), then people would cut them more slack; but they didn't...and because they don't have a consistent history of participating in the series at all, they - perhaps rightly, to some extent - took flack for not offering up the apparently obligatory sieg heil. So the braggadocio was high-risk, but it fell on its face because - for reasons addressed and, I'm sure, sub-reasons we will never know - we never got to experience the car that was promised. It's not because the car was a "bad idea", but seems more of a failure during the planning stages, when it sure seems as though there were promises and handshakes with a certain supplier, but no substance. And so the derivative issues with the car were compounded...

Or...maybe the car in fact was a terrible idea that was doomed from the start. The point? You don't know what you don't know; and I suspect we don't know an awful lot. To that end, I credit those within the Nissan program for not publicly throwing anyone under the bus for their failure.

So judge them harshly if you must, but I ask that at least let the criticism be tempered with thoughts on what could have been; as these very thoughts are felt by every member of this race team, yet with no finger-pointing all the while.

And so with that, I am happy I witnessed an outrageous, daring attempt at something, that got people thinking outside the box.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Keycube

Are you saying that (you think) performance was never a consideration with the car? Because by that definition, the venture was a success; after all, the car got lots of press...

Yes. And agreed. The project reached every marketing goal that was set at the start by Nissan team US.

Originally Posted by Keycube

And so with that, I am happy I witnessed an outrageous, daring attempt at something, that got people thinking outside the box.

which should be a means to get to the goal, not the goal itself...

[500]

Well, I guess marketing ambitions may have been realized.

But at the end of the day, we are left with some damaged reputations and a car that never reached a point of development anywhere close to what was required.

It is too bad for the WEC to lose a works effort, but the whole operation just never seemed to be working at the level needed.

[wdave0]

Still a good PR result as the general public it was designed to excite will be mostly unaware of the failures and closing - PR for those is very muted and only the few knowledgeable and interested fans (like us here(will know all about it.

[Dyson Mazda]

"The Don" had quite a good run last time he bought someone else's front engined prototype design; though his relationship with Nissan is not great at the moment.

[Artur]

Originally Posted by helgi

If they put less PR in their Le Mans efforts (buying Delta Wing with Chevrolet engine, making an electric 5 laps sprinter and now this) it won't be so loud. OK, you are making something different, but why to shout about it from every auto- or scientific magazine as if You've already won something? The concept was very interesting, but the way it was advertised - it's something that doesn't make me sad at all.

That's what is sad about Nissan. Since their farcical DW days, it has all been about PR hyperbole for them. They never delivered real cutting-edge engineering, it was all about self hyping and promotion.

They had already humiliated Audi, Porsche and Toyota even before any mile was covered. They made damn sure to make everybody knows that they are super ultra innovative, out-of-this-world and ground-breaking. Their car was not "another boring one like their competitors"

I understand GG say on this and I'm not bashing the engineers or any general worker of the team. Nissan's(Cox, Palmer, Bowlby or whoever) arrogant attitude that annoys me. They have a very big mouth and that will obviously bite back when the results are ridiculous. Yes, as GG points out, Nissan's aggressive marketing might bring more fans to the sport, but there must be some dosage in order to not end up with what we got here.

Ben Bowlby will probably forever be the sole designer to have made such an elementary mistake of using slimmer tires than regulations allows! They wanted to keep the diffuser's max allowed width of 1.1m(that's a right decision given the great L/D values of underbody aero) but have opted for making the rear 1.8m(the min allowed) for slightly lower drag, instead of opting for wider rear tires for FAR more grip and better wear.

Open wheelers, under tire war, could always choose to run slimmer tires(regulations have only limited the maximum) for vastly reduced drag(open wheels accounts for ~35% of total drag), so, why didn't they do that? Because the reduction in grip(increase in wear) will more than offset that, so, it's not worthy.

This "detail", alone, is enough to show how poorly conducted this project has always been. If using skinnier rear tires(for shorter rear bodywork width, thus less drag) was worthy, don't you all think everybody would be doing it for years, hell, even decades?!

Oh well, most of what I said was already better covered/addressed/worded by other members.

I don't think that absolutely everything about it was worthless or without merit. There were possibly a few things about their design that could eventually prove fruitful(for instance, the aero tunnels). It's sad to see a manufacturer, specially with such a diverse car, leaves but, at the same time, I have/had a very hard time dealing with Nissan's ever hype, arrogance and self praise. In the end, I'm not surprised neither utterly disapointed that this have happened.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by wdave0

Still a good PR result as the general public it was designed to excite will be mostly unaware of the failures and closing - PR for those is very muted and only the few knowledgeable and interested fans (like us here(will know all about it.

You're right they won't know much, so they will have no problem in remembering the cars being 20 seconds off pace and never showing up again after one LM. That says failure not anything else. No amount of sugarcoating they might or might not hear about can fix that. Especially when time moves on and history books look at this chapter afterwards.

AMR-One designers must be relieved.

Wonder what Jay Leno would have to say about this now, he was so enthuastic last spring about the car.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

5th sounds good. Behind all but 1 P2 car doesn't sound as good.

It does when that's the speed it was built to achieve at the time.

That's the thing people keep ignoring about the Delta Wing - it was "slow" at Le Mans because the ACO WANTED it slow(and that capability was maintained at PLM). They don't want G56 entries outrunning the big boys, they just want it to prove it's concept. The Delta Wing actually outpaced the speed the ACO wanted it to be going(ACO wanted a lap time of about 3:50, it did 3:42).

[seanyb505]

So if a P1 car is built to go at the speed of a lower class car, reaching the lower speed is a success?

The dw was always about getting eyeballs on ALMS.

-Series is sputtering...what should we do?
-Let's get that stillborn Indycar proposal in here. It looks different, people will watch just for the sake of it.

[Deleted]

I don't like DW nor agree of much what has been pro-argumented for it (particularly since when you don't have to obey the rules all others have to follow, it doesn't really matter what you achieve), however it didn't appear in ALMS until it was already known NASCAR was buying the series over. So there wasn't that much need to have something as gimmick candy there on dead water series just waiting to move over... the real reason was pleasing uncle Don. Still is with this GT-DW-coupe-whatever it is.

[TF110]

Were all armchair engineers here regarding this specific car. I think you all should read the latest autosport piece and see just what the car was going to become.

Imo, Nissan lost patience. Actually, even if they didn't withdraw from the wec, they couldn't run the car as is because it failed a rear crash-test! I'm not condoning what Nissan has done to it's 'employees', but the car needed a(nother) redesign on top of the redesign it was running presumably at NOLA. Carcamo says the car would have to go through this remake... then obviously get crash-tested, get a new hybrid on top of the new hybrid and then test all within 3-4 months. Imo, the previous 'management' was a failure and didn't do the car any justice. New guy (Carcamo) comes in, tries to set things right, but the amount of work needed to get it right would take more time than he's allowed or before the wec starts.

End result is either run the old car which wouldn't cut it, get the new car in at a later race or drop out.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

So if a P1 car is built to go at the speed of a lower class car, reaching the lower speed is a success?

Congrats, you missed the point. Quite deliberately, in fact, since you chose to focus on one detail instead of the overall whole(specifically, you ignored the fact that the DW reached P1 speeds once the ACO's speed restrictions were removed). Par for the course for blind DW haters - focus on what seems to support the hate(Even if it doesn't) ignore everything that doesn't.

But I've been off topic long enough so I'm gonna leave it at that.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Congrats, you missed the point. Quite deliberately, in fact, since you chose to focus on one detail instead of the overall whole(specifically, you ignored the fact that the DW reached P1 speeds once the ACO's speed restrictions were removed). Par for the course for blind DW haters - focus on what seems to support the hate(Even if it doesn't) ignore everything that doesn't.

But I've been off topic long enough so I'm gonna leave it at that.

While the LMPs got stuck with their costcaps and development freezes and whatnot restrictions, same rules (or any other) didn't apply to DW... between 2012 and 2013 they were also allowed to switch engine to one with much higher horsepower, and has bodywork and aero modifications to whatever dollar sums. If some stock P2 Oreca had been allowed to have such freedoms as well, you know free'd up from ACO (ACTUAL) restrictions, you don't think they couldn't do the same and much much more...

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Chiana

While the LMPs got stuck with their costcaps and development freezes and whatnot restrictions, same rules (or any other) didn't apply to DW... between 2012 and 2013 they were also allowed to switch engine to one with much higher horsepower, and has bodywork and aero modifications to whatever dollar sums. If some stock P2 Oreca had been allowed to have such freedoms as well, you know free'd up from ACO (ACTUAL) restrictions, you don't think they couldn't do the same and much much more...

I never made any such claim. The fact of the matter is, however, that the blind DeltaWing haters tend to ignore the fact that, no matter how you slice it, the car proved it was a workable concept. It's no coincidence that the car has had it's biggest struggles AFTER it moved away from the original design - the construction of which was overseen by the man who understood the idea better than anyone else.

The Delta Wing has proven itself well enough to say that if Nissan had continued to back the project financially it would have won several races. The fact that it's done as well as it has on Elan's(comparatively) shoestring budget is a testament to the design.

The amount of money sunk into the project after Elan took it over has been grossly overestimated. It's been doing what it has so far on a smaller budget than most P2 constructors put into development of their chassis. And it has managed to do it on less power and fuel, as intended. (not the half power/fuel aimed for originally, but it's closer to half than it is to equaling the power of the cars it takes on)

What disappoints me about the Delta Wing was that the experimental carbon-fiber-block engine it was going to have never materialized. (not surprising given the Elan budget, but still disappointing)

[TF110]

Come on guys, this aint the DW thread, lets not go down that route. It might have proven itself in some people's opinions but thats not anything to go by for this Nissan. This car had one showing and that's it. Any conclusion on it is based off that sole race this year at Le Mans. I think it's sad because they didn't show half of what they're capable of. In terms of horsepower, that's close to being literal.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by TF110

Come on guys, this aint the DW thread, lets not go down that route. It might have proven itself in some people's opinions but thats not anything to go by for this Nissan. This car had one showing and that's it. Any conclusion on it is based off that sole race this year at Le Mans. I think it's sad because they didn't show half of what they're capable of. In terms of horsepower, that's close to being literal.

I think the point that all we've got to judge the programme by is a sole race cuts to the heart of the point - it's not really enough to pass judgement. Plenty of cars have had really troubled debuts and gone on to be perfectly respectable performers, and even those that didn't (and yes, we can include the Lavaggi here if we like) at least provided some on track interest while they fumbled their way along.

Nissan have one deeply disappointing race outing to show for their efforts and this will forever tarnish the programme. Better by far to be entirely stillborn and be fodder for speculation and mystique (is the Nissan P35 a good example?), or to have run more, developed, and even if it ended up underwhelming at least give the impression that they were in it to compete (the Ford C100 programme is the one that I've got most in mind here, but maybe a more recent example would be the Cadillac effort in the early 2000s).

Give it a few years, let the rancour subside and people forget and I suspect a mention of Nissan at a 10/10ths meetup will give rise to quite a few wry smiles, a consensus that this wasn't the way to do things, and a few old stagers being pleased they got to see it.

[brakedisc]

You have to laugh,

car was a disaster from the start because the designer tried to change the laws of physics, redesign failed to work because the basic layout was a joke, the manufacturer gets outside help to asses the car, (Newey)
manufacturer then bins the project,


And we get people on here telling us it was a success.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by brakedisc

the designer tried to change the laws of physics,

Oh, look, a hater who doesn't know what actually happened. What a shock.

I love it when people claim the laws of physics tell us the car couldn't work. Same reasoning given for why the Delta Wing would just flip over when it tried to corner(which is the only thing we could be certain would NOT happen before the Delta Wing hit the track), and just as ignorant of the actual physics of the matter.

Though in this case, it's just as much a lack of comprehension of how the car would work -and it's weight balance- as it is a lack of comprehension of physics.

redesign failed to work

Yeah, the redesign failed SOOOO badly, what with it actually hitting the lap times at COTA that it actually needed to hit without the hybrid and the power it DID have still only going to the front wheels.

And we get people on here telling us it was a success.

Oh, AND he pays no attention to what people are actually saying.

NOBODY here has said the car was a success. We've (correctly) noted that it hit performance marks that indicate it could work out when the hybrid system was installed. References to successes relative to likely intended goals have been made, but nothing more.

Perhaps you should come back when you actually know what you're talking about.

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

the DW reached P1 speeds once the ACO's speed restrictions were removed

That never happened, midpack LMP2 speed at best when it was run by Nissan, typically slower than PC when run by Panoz. Even if it had ever done well, hardly relevant to compare it to an LMP when it is completely outside the regulations.

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

We've (correctly) noted that it hit performance marks that indicate it could work out when the hybrid system was installed. References to successes relative to likely intended goals have been made, but nothing more.

Citation needed, the reports that it was doing P1L speeds at Cota =/= laptimes.

[brakedisc]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Oh, look, a hater who doesn't know what actually happened. What a shock.

I love it when people claim the laws of physics tell us the car couldn't work. Same reasoning given for why the Delta Wing would just flip over when it tried to corner(which is the only thing we could be certain would NOT happen before the Delta Wing hit the track), and just as ignorant of the actual physics of the matter.

Though in this case, it's just as much a lack of comprehension of how the car would work -and it's weight balance- as it is a lack of comprehension of physics.



Yeah, the redesign failed SOOOO badly, what with it actually hitting the lap times at COTA that it actually needed to hit without the hybrid and the power it DID have still only going to the front wheels.



Oh, AND he pays no attention to what people are actually saying.

NOBODY here has said the car was a success. We've (correctly) noted that it hit performance marks that indicate it could work out when the hybrid system was installed. References to successes relative to likely intended goals have been made, but nothing more.

Perhaps you should come back when you actually know what you're talking about.

Since I know nothing and you know it all perhaps you could tell us what Adrian Newey told the Nissan board? I bet he took one look at it and said............................................File B for bucket.