March 722 - 732 - 742 - 752

[driftwood]

Chris i was being facitious!!
Monza gorilla had beta money for f1 f2 programme as a works associated river
sadly the americans take poetic licence with historic race car liveries these days

i know of 2 lola t290 series cars in Gitanes livery when they are clearly not he correct cars for that livery
hey ho i guess 1 man is happy and 5333 are not not

[wbmoore]

This thread has become useless. I actually own a 722 and was hoping to learn of it's history. But instead I read some American hater's rant about paint jobs. Does he hate all Americans or just the ones with enough money to paint their toys as they see fit. It's not as if they are historically important F1 cars or they are trying to deceive others in to believing THEIR cars are something they are not.

Does this Driftwood actually own any cars or is he just one of the 5333 unhappy people. Buy a car, put it in a lock-up and go talk to it. Be constructive and stop ****in'.

I realize I might get thrown off 10/10ths for being a donkey. Hope not because the other threads are still informative. However I am leaving this thread behind. Thanks Chris. Thanks Allen. Hope to "see" you in the other threads. wbMoore.

Mods note - Drifty is quite trying at times, so your rant is understandable but probably an over reaction, so I have edited it slightly. Yes, he not only owns race cars but also deals in them. He does know a lot about them, but his posting style leaves a lot to be desired, as he well knows. You won't get thrown off, but I recommend hitting the 'report post' button, rather than have a go on the thread!

[SteveTracy]

Chris, do you maintain a 722 chassis list with known history? I should be getting a good amount of SCCA and other series programs and related docs soon from my mother, curious if I can narrow the field for my father's 722 by elimination to start with.

Thanks in advance.
Steve

ps. apologize for redundant posting, posts did not appear, then I posted again, later they all showed up same time! Some sort of technical browser glitch or something.

[SteveTracy]

Originally Posted by driftwood

Chris i was being facitious!!
Monza gorilla had beta money for f1 f2 programme as a works associated river
sadly the americans take poetic licence with historic race car liveries these days

i know of 2 lola t290 series cars in Gitanes livery when they are clearly not he correct cars for that livery
hey ho i guess 1 man is happy and 5333 are not not

Well, never thought of that. Explains why I am looking at a North America Atlantic car "restored" to a team, color, finish that none of the 12 known 75B's ever were associated with here. Personally I'd think you'd want to be historically correct if you're running at historic racing events and shows, or clearly communicate it's a replica, just my opinion and by all means it is their car, not mine.

Never challenge "worse" however, this car actually has period/model correct appearance aside from the paint, but UGH!





This poor car appears to have been associated with some of the worst television series produced possibly ever, talk about your black sheep in the family:



http://imcdb.org/vehicle_223569-March-75B-1975.html

Now that's truly abuse.

[SteveTracy]

Not to throw fuel on the fire so to speak, but is this a 751 or 752 the 75B owner is trying to emulate? Sorry if this is a noob question - F2 news in the 1970's was pretty much an oxymoron here in the US...



or this as seen in Montreal F1 Historics, 2004?

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by SteveTracy

Chris, do you maintain a 722 chassis list with known history? I should be getting a good amount of SCCA and other series programs and related docs soon from my mother, curious if I can narrow the field for my father's 722 by elimination to start with.

Thanks in advance.
Steve

ps. apologize for redundant posting, posts did not appear, then I posted again, later they all showed up same time! Some sort of technical browser glitch or something.

Steve

I do indeed maintain a 722 chassis list, though it has a lot of gaps in it. Gradually we fill those gaps in, and hopefully help you and guys like Brad Moore [who I'd hope will stay with the forum]. Anything you can tell me about your dad's car will be useful. We can isolate a few cars on the west coast that it might have been, particularly once we know dates. The big problem will be assigning a chassis number because there were 41 of these things built. Most went to USA as FB, and the build records won't be a lot of help because they will mostly just show the agent who handled the car [Grimaldi]. We know the chassis numbers of all the European cars and a few American ones, the rest is deduction and inspired guess work.

About those SCCA documents - these can be a real gold mine for a project that I am working on for oldracingcars.com. Having gone a long way down the road with pro FB and Atlantic results on the website, the next step is to go into SCCA nationals. As the Americans reading this who raced in the 70s and 80s will attest, the SCCA was, and is, not the most efficient organisation on the planet, so the chances of them ever going on line with their own archives are slim. Period coverage of most SCCA races was pretty minimal - so for this project ORC has to depend on guys who have programmes, entry lists, race results, issued on the day. So, Steve, really appreciate what you are doing here.

BTW guys
Drifty's not an American hater and nor am I despite my reservations about the SCCA [I lived in New York for two years - okay NYC's not America...nearly married an American girl and would happily take a job in the right city] but I too wonder about the liveries some guys choose for their cars - and it's not just an American thing, there are some odd paint jobs running around in Europe.

[SteveTracy]

If this is a mispost for the thread please let me know, I can ask someone to move it - I just noticed this thread stops with the 752.

Finally rec'd some programs, photos, here is the March 74B my father ran in '76-'77. I think this was at Kent, unsure. The Players series stickers are covering up a black lettered logo I found in a program photo but have been unable to read so far. The programs have quite a few (1961-1983) years of the start lists (sorry no results) for both CSCC, SCCA Regional race results and a few National series SCCA races.

The front makes it 74B, I was earlier confused by the engine cover as many 75B's have that style and some of the 76B's are smooth. The vanes on the wing are someone's earlier add-on's, that was one of two noses provided with the car.

If the 722 stayed local to the NW Region I have a couple possible candidates who may have purchased it, one that is consistent with my mother's recollection. I'll post back later with the info.



722:

[SteveTracy]

Ron Householder is one of two strong possible buyers of the 722, he shows up within 1-2 seasons with a March "72B" Formula Atlantic Car and he lived about 2 blocks from my Grandparents, local privateer who really stuck in there for a long time and actually shows up in some Atlantic results with respectable finishes against strong competition. I think it would have been tough to be competitive in a 722 in 1977-78, but there are a few in the series still up until about 1980.

This is the first National where I found my father's 74B, June 1976.

[Chris Townsend]

Steve

Looking at the paintjob on the 74B my first thought is that it might be Don Briedenbach's car - he came from the Bay area so it wouldn't have been too far a haul to sell the car. I think a lot of SF based cars went up to the north west later in life

Looking at the sideplates on the wing I think that your dad has left the 1974 Players series stickers in place - now all I need to find is a shot of Briedenbach's wing.

I've sent an email to Ron Householder about the 722

Chris

[Chris Townsend]

Steve

Thanks so much for the Rose Cup entry lists - immediately they helped with the history of Tom Foster's BT38 [which can't now be the BT38 used in 1974 by Mike Rocke] and Bill Hill's BT29
More please!!!

Will get back to you on the 722

Chris

[driftwood]

Steve looking at the foto of your dads march in white livery it looks like a cross between 73 74 bodywork with the cockpit section and nose
Its hard to tell about sidepods from the angle of the foto

also how can you say Charlies Angels was 1 of the worst programmes ever made it was ahead of its time with babes on TV. Most programmes only had 1 "hot" leading lady but this had 3 - what more could a pubescesant male want!

FAO Mr Moore
your post is 1 of the funniest i have read here !!
I am off to get my scaletrix set out and repaint all the cars into non original liveries

John If i was not "trying" i would never get there!

[SteveTracy]

Same car either earlier same season (1976) or late 1975, before the Players emblems, there is something else there both on the wing and up front behind the front wheel on the side. I can't read it.



I hadn't noticed the cutout on the nose before, the other nose is very flat w/o vanes. The one on the car reminds me of other 74's of various types I've seen like this guy:



or similar to this, completely flat across the top surface and no venting in front:



Ron Householder is listed starting with a blue March 77B in 1983 SCCA National race in Portland, #6 car. In 1981 he's listed with a Brabham BT-40, red 36.

Another possible sold-to for the 74B is Tom Black of Lake Oswego, Oregon, he's listed in 1980 with a March 74B in Orange #32 car. That's purely a guess because all I know is the car was sold 1977-1979 time frame.

A possible 722 sold-to is Squire Tomasie of Bellevue WA, started 1979 race with a March 722 in black #44 car, sponsor listed Interlake Porsche-Audi. Also an interesting name pops up in 1979, Arnstein Loyning (Arnie) with a March 76B in red. IIRC he made his name building National Championship winning Formula Ford Motors in Portland and even his own FF car model.

One that caught my eye in 1979 is Nick Lingren of Lake Oswego, Oregon, listed with a March 75B in black, #5 car sponsored by Vic's Auto Electric. 1979 is a lean year because of the lack of National points, just a Regional Race.

1978 has Michael Fisher (Mike) starting with what must be a brand new 78B, #32 car, no color specified, Rapido Auto sponsor. Mike had a way of showing up with with new rides owned by someone else, I am pretty sure he set a PIR lap record of 1:06 or so in the 722 before my father had it.

Well, I'll scan in the lists, it's a pretty good pile. Don Briedenbach is a vaguely familiar name to me. Dad bought the car in the bay area on a road trip with my brother Brian and Sans Thompson, San's wife, with a detour to Long Beach to watch the F1 race. Not sure if it was the September 1975 F1 Race or the March 1976 F1 race, my brother would know. I was leaning toward 1975 because Mario Andretti raced and IIRC Jody Scheckter also. Then I realized Long Beach was the US Grand Prix West in 1976, so Mario Andretti would have raced there, too, along with Ronnie Peterson.

March 1976 - from my brother:

"74B was purchased as a roller near San Francisco, March of 76. On that trip we drove down to LA for the first Long Beach GP. Saw the likes of Niki Lauda, Mario, Jody Scheckter, John Watson, Fitipaldi, etc. I went down with Sans and his wife in the old Ford LTD station wagon and drove it back from there. One of those driving moments that you never forget. I was taking a turn a the wheel on the way back to PDX with trailer/chassis in tow. I was 17. It was dark, pouring rain and for a significant amount of time I had trouble seeing the road, boxed in by triple trailer rigs and concrete median. Sans and his wife slept through the whole thing."


That would be classic Dad - send my brother off with Sans to get a car on a 2000 mile road trip with a '69 LTD Ford Wagon, that thing wagged its own tail in the wet w/o a trailer, only good point was a 429 4-barrel motor (and ability to withstand a 70 mph + collision with a 70's Mercury Montego that came very close to being in my lap). The regular tow rig was a 1972 Chevy Full Size 3/4 ton pickup. Guess they thought the wagon would be more comfortable, but no way I would have wanted to drive it that trip.

[SteveTracy]

Btw may have mentioned this before, Allan Lader might be a first owner of the 722, he ran and won in Laguna in 1972 with a 722, but was driving a Chevron B27 by Westwood 1974, so the car had moved on. He lived in Gresham, OR on the outskirts of Portland.

Westwood is where I've seen Don Breidenbach's name, in 1975 running a 75B. Next year, a 76B. Doesn't sound like he held onto the cars long, nice position to be in, running the most current March in FA

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by SteveTracy

Well, I'll scan in the lists, it's a pretty good pile. Don Briedenbach is a vaguely familiar name to me. Dad bought the car in the bay area on a road trip with my brother Brian and Sans Thompson, San's wife, with a detour to Long Beach to watch the F1 race. Not sure if it was the September 1975 F1 Race or the March 1976 F1 race, my brother would know. I was leaning toward 1975 because Mario Andretti raced and IIRC Jody Scheckter also. Then I realized Long Beach was the US Grand Prix West in 1976, so Mario Andretti would have raced there, too, along with Ronnie Peterson.

Steve if your dad bought the car in the Bay Area I'm pretty sure it's Breidenbach's - there weren't any others out on the West coast, I'm pretty sure
I'll drop Sans a line too.

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by SteveTracy

One that caught my eye in 1979 is Nick Lingren of Lake Oswego, Oregon, listed with a March 75B in black, #5 car sponsored by Vic's Auto Electric. 1979 is a lean year because of the lack of National points, just a Regional Race.

This certainly wasn't a real 75B - according to Sans Thompson, who wrecked it a Trois Rivieres, it was both 722 underneath and the worst race car he ever drove

Steve, I've dropped you a Private Message

Chris

[driftwood]

it is easy to make the 722 into any combo of bodywork kits from 73B to 77B as the tub wishbone upright format is the same so even a 74B can be rebodied to look like 76 or 77B
you could even swap around the wishbones on the cars a sthe pick up points on chassis are all the same
when the march cars do not have air intake in nose cone they have rads either side of the motor at rear
in 1974 the F2 car had sie pods onto the tub fille diwth foam to ocmply with adeformable crash structure
the shape of the pod was then used on B cars but i dont think they did fill them with foam and why you may see some cars with painted alloy tub side and no bolt on pods
essentially atlantic car was the european F2 car kit but it ran smaller rear brakes than F2 car due to engine size/power output and in 73/4 the BMW powered cars used FG400 gearbox over the FT200
an american car owner could easily have popped over to euroland and raced his B car in F2 with simple mods to car and engine change

[Leighton Irwin]

Being involved in NA FB/FA pro racing in the years 72 through 78 (and other years) March entry designations were often a joke. Cars entered as a 75B could be a 74B, 733 or a 722 or any combination thereof or even non existent designations. Results sometimes had a different model number than the entry. I know of one 722 that was always entered latterly as a 76B just to gain an entry. It rarely showed up and even more rarely ran. It got the owner/driver into the paddock though. No comment on the reason, although I know.
Don Briedenbach was closely tied in with John David Briggs (Briggs and Stanton engines) and I understand the 'Stardust'. Who actually owned the cars was a question at the time.
Chevron designations with the B20 to 29 were not much better.
We, and others, used to enter Brabham BT16's as BT18's to get entries accepted.
The officials didn't have a clue as to what was what.
Of course, the 74B came in both front and side rad configuration to confuse matters more.

[SteveTracy]

I definitely agree from my own experience. For example I see obviously misrepresented cars at the SCCA regional start lists, but in many cases I know the car and driver, and mostly the time frame I am looking into is 72-76, so that also narrows down the field pretty much. I think all the 75B's are accounted for during that time period in NA, but there are a lot of 74B's masquerading as 76B's later on, and even 722's looking more like 75-76B cars.

In the Player's Canadian Atlantic and SCCA/IMSA Atlantic events however the cars are listed pretty accurately in the finishing results, at least usually out to the top 15 cars or so, partly because about 60-70% are driving a current year March or at most one year back. Those results show pretty reliable car make/model/year. Somewhat true for SCCA Nationals.

However, what incentive did an official have to look really closely at year model when all the 72-78 March FB/FA cars run the same class regardless of year? Where it shows up today is in resale of some really questionable cars where an older chassis is represented as a newer one, I have seen at least one very likely fake 75B up for sale at a good price. If 42 722's were imported vs. 12 75B's, the incentive to fake the model year is definitely there. I recently also saw a fully restored 722 sell for almost $70k USD, sort of high price I thought.

[Chris Townsend]

The upgrading of 722s sometimes meant that they had really long lives even as pro racers.
722-20 is quite well known I think, having started out as a Grimaldi car in the pro series in 1972, then getting new bodywork and whole new life in Californian SCCA with Steve Jizmagian, Jimmy Santos and Rick Sutherland [Lempe] all the way up to the mid 80s. When this car was sold recently it had 76/77B bodywork but was described as 722 and still had the plate.
722-33 is another good case in point: it presumably was a pro series car but we first know it from a 1977 SCCA log book in California when Ted Titmus buys it from Wilbur Bunce, as a 76B, so presumably Wilbur had it as Tim Cooper's 76B in the pro series the previous year. Before then, we don't know who...

Chris

[driftwood]

when these cars ran so long i wonder how many tub reskins they had or did the car just run and run and slwoly became uncompetitive as the chassis became soft n flexi?

of course in euroland we had 2 or 3 cars in UK that went racing for years and some went sprinting hillclimbing
plus in mountain racing some F2 chassis had long careers whilst other sat in sheds after 1 or 2 seasons use

[Frank Verplanken]

Speaking of long careers, this site gives Ami Guichard (editor of l'Année Automobile) winning a slalom event in Switzerland with a 732 in 1984 and 1987... Also lists JD Murisier winner with a 752 in 1990... Are the histories of these two cars known ?

[John Turner]

Welcome, Frank.

[marc bahner]

Have you compiled a llist of March 742 still running?

[allenbrown]

Chris and I are trying to!

[driftwood]

Looking for info on a car that raced in Libre events at Croft 1977
Paul brookes appears with a742 car
in Autosport june july 77 a story is saying that he appeared with a March 742 BDX engine "bitsa" with 1 side pod off Flamminis car other pod off Giacomelli and cockpit section off ?? ( escapes me now) car

I am reliably informed by Allen that he raced only at Croft; appeared 10 Jul 1977, 07 Aug 1977, 28 Aug 1977, 18 Sep 1977, 11 Jun 1978 and 02 Sep 1978.
Sold car to Geoff Byman, who fitted a BDD and ran it in the 1979 Atlantic series as a “75B”

do you guys have any photos or add more info
swapping BDX for BDD is a simple task
1 what was the chassi number
2 who did Geof Byman sell it onto?