[WEC] 2015 WEC Discussion

[Simmi]

Well this thread is officially unbearable.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

I suggest you study the history books a bit more as they show you that Mercedes was actively planning on a partial ALMS season in 1999 (from LM onwards) going head to head with BMW and Panoz. Also Porsche dropped out after 1998 because of the MB dominance in FIA GT (nothing to do with not having a proper platform available) while Audi on the other hand ran at Sebring in '99 as warm up for LM that year and their long time ALMS commitment from 2000 onwards.

ALMS, but not a FIA world championship.

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

The ALMS was the 'de-facto' world championship in 1999-200x, running a partial Euro campaign and having a race in Australia at the end of 2000 (technically it met the FIA WC criterium of running races on 3 different continents).

Yes but its still just ALMS, not an FIA world championship, like in '98.

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

And I don't see why we can not long for large grids with lots of variety in cars, tracks and events since it was only a mere 3 years ago that we had a series like that (which was preceded by a more local one in Europe). Seems funny that when you're speaking of giving the new WEC a break you rely on stuff like 'reality'* and 'the series has only been in existence for a short period of time'* but when it comes to dealing with cons you use the same reasoning (the latter) to dismiss them.

Reality is the ILMC in 2011 (its last year of existence before it became the wec) had 26 full season entries. Theres nothing wrong with the tracks ILMC visited. But to say "large grids" "variety in cars", theres a double standard. There was 3 lmp2's (2 at Zhuhai). A total of 7 gte pro cars, 2 of which were Lotus Evora's that were never much a threat. Lmp1 had Peugeot, Oak Pescarolo and Aston Martin all drop after that year.

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

The WEC is basically just an evolution of the ILMC (which in it's turn was merely an evolution of the LMS) and the organization (run by FIA/ACO with Neveu as their frontman) choose to change the series into a more F1 style championship instead of building on the foundations that the LMS/ILMC had laid down successfully in the years before 2012.

And yes, that's where a lot of frustration is coming from, trying to 'preach happiness'* is not gonna change that - it could actually make it worse!

* my words, not yours.

If its an evolution how is it changing towards an F1-style series? Im happy because I can see world class sportscars compete on a world stage. I dont have to get everything I wish for to be satisfied. Thats being realistic. Keeping expectations in check. Thats being realistic.

Originally Posted by Chiana

Coach already answered most of my main points so very much thank to him!

But I most point out these to TF110 as for the 100th time he brings up the you made that up / putting words to my mouth -card.



You make up words to suit your argument.
As if you don't with such lines as "As if bop doesnt exist in other series, or ever in the past" which is something I have never said and have continuously made counter arguments against, or "Aww, we dont get 4 races in the US at old "historic" tracks!" (more below) or indeed this:

I never said every f1 grade 1 track is good, you made that up.
Where I have claimed such thing? What I actually said was that you were repeating the same 'favorite' line ("Imo, a lot of people live too much in the past and think things should be a combination of all their favorite racing and cars") stuff from here
-- when complaining about their favorite race track not getting the one series called WEC
-- the wec isnt in a position to make races at everyone's favorite tracks.
and I have replied to you about this twice afterwards (that it's not about picking up favorites but rather the general idea) but you have always ignored that.

I never said be happy or else.
"Whatta ya gonna do" is me saying you either give up watching your favorite cars or just accept whats happening.

I said I watch what I can and get on with it instead of dwelling on fantasies of former 'glory days' you wont see again. Im being a realist.
Dwelling on 'former glory days' that were reality just three years ago doesn't sound fantasizing to me if that was something you preferred over the current scheme, it's preferring the previous iteration that was just right around the corner.

No, I dont own vinyls, I was only born in the 80's, I dont live in them .
You do realize the term 'figure of speech'?

Your arguments arent against me being realistic, they're degrading and inflamatory.
What that does even mean?

What happened in 3 years was alms folded to Nascar who didnt want their machinery showed up by lmp1. Thats we dont have Sebring or PLM. Fault the wec for it is the goto argument. No matter that Sebring was on its schedule in 2012.
That might be why don't we have Sebring & PLM now but it's not why we didn't have them beyond 2012 (or 2011 in the case of PLM), which is what we've been really discussing here. And again you bring it up as I was blaming WEC/FIA alone for it, which is not true as I have already said in previous posts.





---
I'm sorry for this messy response but I don't wanna take all the blame for nothing

You misconstrued my comments to mean like I quoted someone saying those exact words. In actuality theyre summaries of the negativity in this thread. You're doing the same thing I just commented about. Like Mr. Coach said, "my words, not your's".

[Deleted]

Yeah right.

I'm not gonna give a single further reply on this matter. Not only because there's infranctions likely to be flying this way if/when it'd escalate to the level it seems to be heading again, but because this is as unbearable as Simmi it described. AND if I counted the third time in this thread we've had this same multi page fight (with little variations)

[TF110]

The internet is a wonderful place. But its not easy to convey your words or tone. Sometimes a light hearted remark comes across acrimonious.

[Rodger Davies]

Whilst I agree with a lot of Coach/Chiana et al's points here, especially with regard to the standalone format of WEC v the integrated format of ILMC (the latter being far preferential in my book), you are right that it is what it is, and what it is is all we currently have.

What I will say (and I won't always say this), is that the DSC interview is an excellent piece, with the right questions being asked and answered.

The part I'm most disheartened by is that where it's clear the current schedule is chosen partially for hospitality reasons, and little to do with spectacle or the fans. I think we knew that already, but good that they're open about that. Also good to get word on the car counts and reasons for limits. It's a shame that we'll never see grids like ILMC had at Spa (for example), but nice to know the logic and reasons nonetheless (not enough value in a few extra cars). Good job Graham/DSC for the article.

The paywall for the coverage still seems ridiculous and I hope that the manufacturers have a word with them about that in the off-season, but I will admit that the coverage itself is good quality, although a bit less bias to the P1 field would be appreciated.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

The paywall for the coverage still seems ridiculous and I hope that the manufacturers have a word with them about that in the off-season, but I will admit that the coverage itself is good quality, although a bit less bias to the P1 field would be appreciated.

I agree with you! No one is gonna attract new fans as well as retaining hardcore ones with that setup.

Seeing the series itself, it's hard for WEC to air their races on TV and it's stupid to block stream access (let alone putting geo-restriction) unless you pay the subscription, which will be used to pamper the VIPs on raceday!

[lms]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

Whilst I agree with a lot of Coach/Chiana et al's points here, especially with regard to the standalone format of WEC v the integrated format of ILMC (the latter being far preferential in my book),

but the WEC races are not always standalone. There were guest entries at COTA,which was awesome, to have the esm car there and the corvette. Its a shame that there wont be more wildcard entries in european and asian rounds, the ALMS could really use some more exposure, ie a version of the "lone star lemans" weekend at one of the Asian rounds.

[MagVanisher]

Speaking of Lone Star Le Mans, would it be nice if both FIA, ACO, and IMSA held a joint event spanning 9 hours instead having separate races on the same weekend.

[Graham Goodwin]

Rodger, thanks for the kind comments.

One point of clarification ref the hospitality part. I understand your point but look at it from a different perspective.

Hospitality is crucially important to teams, manufacturers, drivers and sponsors - This is how they can introduce new customers and others to racing.

As an example - RML's Le Mans and Le Mans Series programmes happened for as long as they did because the companies backing the effort managed to develop a business model through race track hospitality that paid dividends - in other words, their business profited from business gained by impressing people at the races.

At the level at which WEC is pitched it's an essential part of the package.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

Rodger, thanks for the kind comments.

One point of clarification ref the hospitality part. I understand your point but look at it from a different perspective.

Hospitality is crucially important to teams, manufacturers, drivers and sponsors - This is how they can introduce new customers and others to racing.

As an example - RML's Le Mans and Le Mans Series programmes happened for as long as they did because the companies backing the effort managed to develop a business model through race track hospitality that paid dividends - in other words, their business profited from business gained by impressing people at the races.

At the level at which WEC is pitched it's an essential part of the package.

And like it or not, that's worth more to the sport financially than what we pay at the gates. That's what puts the cars on the grid.

[Simmi]

You don't have to be at Le Mans for long to realise hospitality is a massive deal.

The issue with it too is that different teams and organisations across sport keep raising the bar. And ultimately this creates competition for business. If Mr Rolex and his dealers are having a better experience at Wimbledon or the America's Cup then that's bad news for motor racing.

What was acceptable in the 90's or even 10 years ago isn't the case any more at the elite level.



That said the positioning of the app as 'for the fans' and to make life easier is not resonating. To watch the full six hours of Fuji I had to get up at 3am and pay for the privilege. That's not how you grow your audience - telling them about a great product they've never seen before and asking them to immediately pay for it. Especially when so many other series are giving away their races for free. Your own manufacturers were even giving it away for free!

Also to not have an on demand viewing option, but run 5/8 of your races outside of Europe is ridiculous.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Simmi

That said the positioning of the app as 'for the fans' and to make life easier is not resonating. To watch the full six hours of Fuji I had to get up at 3am and pay for the privilege. That's not how you grow your audience - telling them about a great product they've never seen before and asking them to immediately pay for it. Especially when so many other series are giving away their races for free. Your own manufacturers were even giving it away for free!

Also to not have an on demand viewing option, but run 5/8 of your races outside of Europe is ridiculous.

I wonder how long the current app situation will continue. It's strange how Neveu gets criticism in some quarters for speaking many words and saying little, but they take every he says about the app literally.

He's not going to criticise it in any way. I'm not sure if its his baby or not ut with three races remaining and a chance for more people to pay up - and with many already buying the full-season pass - he's not exactly going to come out and say "I got this wrong guys, save your money and find an illegal stream". It was always going to last the season and he'd be mad not to put as much positive spin on it as possible.

A u-turn in the close season wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, or if the paid-content situation remains, I'd be shocked if it remains in its current format.

[Simmi]

Yep I'd like to see what a company like Nissan and Darren Cox thinks about the whole coverage thing. Doesn't really fit in with their mentality and what we've seen them do on YouTube - i.e. as much access and free content as possible.

There's two pieces really because downloading the app is only one part. I downloaded the app - and they can use mine and everyone else's download as a figure they can PR. That's understandable and makes sense.

But I haven't parted with any cash to watch the racing because I see it as a money grab. I doubt they'll announce that figure but I'd be interested to find out how much revenue it actually generated.

[Maelochs]

I am not going to ask how you downloaded the app without paying ... good for you. Or is it a deal where you download and cannot activate?

Either way, I agree gerard Neveu cannot back away from the app at this point. Hopefully he will be smart enough to do so as soon as the season is over.

Besides there being no On-Demand feature, I notice stream quality is not that good a lot of the time. I understand WEC cannot control that, but they still expect fans to pay for crappy definition, stops, stutters, loops, and blackouts ... all at 3 a.m. when packing it in and going to bed is such an attractive alternative.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I am not going to ask how you downloaded the app without paying ... good for you. Or is it a deal where you download and cannot activate?

The app was free but offers in-app purchases.

[Starfish Primer]

The highlights or and on demand option would be a great addition for the 2015 app. I´ve bought the COTA race stream and worked fine.

[TF110]

I think the app is a good idea, but paying for something that was once free (the stream) isn't pleasing. If it was exclusive content, like onboards for any car, their team radios, replays of races, in depth live timing etc. itd be a lot more appealing. Having the basic stream and basic live timing for free is how they should've kept it.

[Purist]

Now, if someone could just explain to me why, and how, FOM is making claims to have clips of Le Mans 1989 taken down on YouTube, as well as videos of the 1994 Marlboro 500 at Michigan. (Are they trying to ERASE the memory that the Mulsanne Straight once had no chicanes?)

TF110, I can deal with the other races being six hours. I can deal with having GTE-Pro and GTE-Am. I hardly say anything about BoP, in any of the series. Hell, I don't even complain about Corvette, Viper, and BMW not being in the WEC, or Aston Martin not being in TUSCC. I even LIKE the fact that the Race Director's feed is played over the race broadcasts; that level of transparency is extremely refreshing.

I go on about the tracks because I still WANT to have the sensory capabilities to appreciate what is going on on-track in a sport I have a real passion for. If my very capacity to see, and otherwise perceive, the compelling nature of what is taking place is diminished, through no fault or action of my own, I am going to be upset. And under those conditions, I have good reason to be!

(And before you say anything about me finding another sport/game to follow. Do you really think a golf, base, basket, volley, foot, or soccer ball is easier to see, either in person or on TV, than a full-sized motorcycle or car? How about a hockey puck?)

The teams and sponsors bring their tents and portable buildings anyway. So long as there is the physical space, which exists at a place like Road America, not just Austin or another Grade 1 circuit, they can put together their full spread, no problem. Frankly, compared to the inside shots I've seen of the various pit/garage facilities, McLaren's portable HQ, from before the recession, was decidedly more impressive.

And NONE of that explains the paved run-offs and whatnot. It's not like the VIP's are ever going to physically venture out to those places, and get rocks in their shoes.

Getting rid of these "get out of jail free" features will FORCE better driving standards, and it is the ONLY thing that CAN achieve this end. Better driving will deliver better racing. Better racing makes for a better show. Unlike yesteryear, catastrophic mechnaical failures are so rare that, by far, the leading root cause of retirements is driver error. Improving the driving reduces errors, and will ensure that more cars finish the races, and put on a show up until said finish.

In addition, what's better for the bottom line than the free promotion of the product, which is so compelling that the fanbase can't help but evanglize, and draw in more followers? Le Mans, and by extension, Sportscar racing, did NOT survive the dry patches through the commitments of the big manufacturers and sponsors. It survived because enough people still cared to MAKE IT a DRAW.

As to the series' name, and nature, they could have MADE an OFFICIAL world championship there in 1998-2000. The window was open, with the ALMS (including Adelaide, Silverstone, and the Nurburgring in 2000), the FIA SCC (including Kyalami), and the Fuji 1000km, in the form it took at that time. The choice and the opportunity to BUILD that world championship existed while the manufacturers were in there for Le Mans. Don Panoz saw the potential, so I can't imagine that the brains at Mercedes-Benz, Toyota, and others couldn't. So, they had the chance staring them in the face, and they CHOSE not to take it. Therefore, I don't see how the lack of a world championship was a serious motivator, or de-motivator, at that time.

As to the name, how is Intercontinental Le Mans Cup any worse or less meaningful than Canadian-American Challenge Cup (Can-Am)? I would submit that the compelling nature of the Can-Am, on-track product MADE that a compelling name! Conversely, a great name will be robbed of any and all of its power by a poor/inferior product.

(On a further side note, there are articles from the SIXTIES referring to the "Million-Dollar McLarens" in Can-Am. Given inflation since then, I'd say that top-level, Prototype Sportscars really have NOT increased that astronomically in price/cost since then. We just go through these cycles, and from the trough at the start to the crest at the peak of escalation, it seems like a huge increase over the past, but truly, the crests haven't changed all that much. As the old adage goes, the more things change, the more they stay the same.)

Going back to, almost, the very top, the fact that they DO carry out some things so well in the WEC IS s big reason WHY I am as demanding as I am. That is, if they are so capable of doing it "right" in these specific areas, why is this NOT happening in some other areas? It is their very demonstration of the capacities they do show that makes the seeming short-comings so disappointing.

[TF110]

I dont think you understand my point of view. Its like everyone thinks Im defending all the wec's decisions. Im not. Id rather Road America and Sebring in the U.S. than Austin. I'd rather Imola than Bahrain. Autopolis than Fuji. Dont really care for Shanghai. But complaining or being angry about it gets me nowhere. It doesnt benefit the wec any, as its not going to change their minds. What my posts are saying is we can concentrate on the topic- 2015- or we can repeat how upset and wrong the wec is. Everyone has an opinion. Not one person's is right or wrong because its a personal choice. I dont want to be labelled as an apologist for the wec because theres plenty they do I dont support.

Your talk of a name is exactly the point Im making. The FIA is a name, and brings a lot with it. They had a series for the top cars and canned it in 99. The ALMS was a name, American Le Mans Series. The thing is, Toyota, Nissan etc. ran in the series before the rename. If they didnt go back to it they wanted something else. With Toyota and BMW it looked like F1. Mercedes just went to DTM. Porsche had plans as we saw, but decided on doing an SUV. What that tells me is without a true world championship to run, most manufacturers chose other world championships or local ones. Porsche made the Cayenne and billions of dollars!

Getting one thing right and two things wrong seems commonplace in today's racing series. This is another thing I wonder what people are surprised with. What you expect compared to what you get will almost never add up to the number you have in mind. But if you agree theres things to be satisfied with, then imo thats the area you can smile about and talk about and enjoy. I come from a family with little, so I dont expect grandiose. Imo, the wec is trying to be that and be current. They succeed in areas in terms of new tracks with top of the line amenities, but they fail at others like grid sizes and history.

To me, its unrealistic for them to hit every nail on the head. Instead of looking at the missed nails, I try to look on the bright side and see their new construction and hope it expands. Maybe along the way they go over those missed nails and finish the job.

[gustavobamba]

Changing the subject a bit , can someone confirm that the Porsche 919 hit 319 km/h , as seen in practice in the TV transmission , or only gave 316.7km/h as it has in the WEC website?

If it emerges that were 319 km/h do not think the speed traps should be a little earlier than they are now , because with the new hybrid systems the cars begin to halt much sooner.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Changing the subject a bit , can someone confirm that the Porsche 919 hit 319 km/h , as seen in practice in the TV transmission , or only gave 316.7km/h as it has in the WEC website?

If it emerges that were 319 km/h do not think the speed traps should be a little earlier than they are now , because with the new hybrid systems the cars begin to halt much sooner.

316.7kmh was quoted from free practice 3. Is that where you took the figure from?

[carbon_titanium]

during fuji qualifying at the end of the first lap, #20 hit 319km/h, without draft, in the main straight, more or less close to the starting line. After that the hybrid boost endend and to save fuel, as happened at le mans, the driver pushed less on the throttle before to brake! because of this the car marked a lower top speed at the speed trap than the real top speed achieved for real.
At le mans, TS040 and 919 were able to pass easily 340km/h in the first section of mulsanne, but because of fuel saving, drivers were forced to release the throttle sometimes also 400m before the first chicane. Because of this the real top speed was over 340km/h, but the top speed marked at the speed trap was lower... sometimes just around 300km/h, even if the car was able to mark 3.22 at the end of the lap.

[TF110]

Imagine what theyll be doing next year if they improve the efficiency. Should be less coasting if thats the case.

[carbon_titanium]

I don't think that thermal engines could improve a lot their fuel efficency (not wasting power output). Surely with an 8MJ ERS, the hybrid boost release will be longer and more powerfull. I'd expect a 2015 qualifying time attack at le mans around 3.20, if this year TS040 was able to run in 3.21

[Flo aus N]

Originally Posted by TF110

Imagine what theyll be doing next year if they improve the efficiency. Should be less coasting if thats the case.

No. The fastest way is to accelerate with the maximum petrol flow allowed per hour and than to coast. Even if they go up to 8 MJ, due to the small decrease in fuel flow (which will reduce them by 6 bhp), the dont have to coast more. But the high Topspeed were also a result of the flexiing rear wing of the Toyota and in testing of the flexing engine cover from Porsche.

From what i understand, these devices are now banned, so this will lead to a reduction in Topspeed of ~10 kmh.