Silverstone Classic 2010

[Moosehead]

Originally Posted by jminsh

A good report me thinks and smack on with the first impact of Watts and Forward as i had a birds eye view at that point he brought it all on himself and was only going to get it back with interest at Chaple curve ?? You forgot to mention me removing Leo at Copse on the first lap ??

Its a pity there was no big screens so that when Patrick had his little tirade on the PA we would all have known better. Maybe the TV cameras picked the incident up?

[delta]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Just back from 2000 mile drive to Eastern Europe and back so some catching up do do here!

Had a long chat with Zola- her gorgeous Jagermeister liveried Alfa was sourced in Denmark, I think she said. She has spent a lot of time getting the Gp2 spec period correct and is to be congratulated for the effort. Hopefully it will be out with Masters Touring 70s later this season!

Thanks JT for the pic of Gilbert Gilbern in GD race- my 'tenths' sticker can be seen above bootlid!

Come on then Mike lets here all about the new purchase. New thread me thinks/Well done you must be knackard

[FastDB2s]

Originally Posted by SAMD

They sure were lively. Did E-types always handle that well? I had thought they were a bit of an animal.

Got a feeling that they took a brave driver to tame them but as with all these things, once you apply some modern thinking (perhaps that should be damping) everything slots into place & the brute can be tamed.
Bit like a DB4GT, they were once considered to have too short a chassis to be successful but they went OK last weekend.

[john ruston]

So the American Stock cars had a race and ran into each other.Not a shock.
Seems to be one hooky car that will vanish or the other race entrants will throw their toys out of their pram and they have many more votes than the spectators.If Mr Watts thinks its that important should revert to modern racing where this sort of thing is acceptable.We don't need that type of driver in Historics!He's good but not a superstar.Someone explain to him we have quite enough decrepit old superstar drivers already and I have a four grand bill to prove the point.Don't see to many 60+ people in other sports pretending they still have it.News for them ,they should not do it if it costs others money.No problem with the Moss,Atwood brigade they have nothing to prove but the FI would have been's if only lot.
Can't imagine Jason doing anything wrong!

[eigger]

Originally Posted by John Turner

A 20 minute race with 40 big bangers starting, of which 32 finished. I'm sure that this was a crowd pleasing spectacle with very close racing at the front and good dicing down the field. Jason Minshaw (88 - Ford Falcon) had the early lead but was displaced fairly quickly by Dean Forward (13 - Ford Mustang) who fought off various competitors to take the flag. One of the latter was Patrick Watts (15 - Mustang) - see pic 2 below - who made what appeared to be pretty heavy impact with the 13 car in attempts to pass it, spun off and retired. When interviewed afterwards, Watts inevitably blamed Forward for the accident and also launched into a pretty unpleasant tirade against the legality of the winning car. Whatever the validity, or otherwise, of his points, the manner in which he expressed them devalued them and was totally unacceptable. I doubt many in the crowd cared greatly about how modified the Forward Mustang was, but were rather more concerned that they and their kids should have to listen to this outburst on what, for them, was a family day out. :-

I agree; I presume the #13 car passed scrutineering. if PW had an issue with the eligibility of the car then this was a matter for discussion with the scrutineers/organisers. It wasn't as though DF was passing it off as App K whilst having a lot of goodies hidden inside the engine - the rear discs were plainly visible.
I'm not qualified to comment on driving standards so I won't.
PW is an ex-pro driver and should know how to behave. He must have known he was being interviewed for the public address- if not, as an ex-pro, he should have known. I can empathise with him if his car was unnecessarily damaged but the public address at a family event is no place for the F word.

[brands]

Finally managed to sort out the images from the 3 days, first some track action and then some paddock/infield shots.

[brands]

page 2

[brands]

page 3

[brands]

and finally....btw, excellent reporting John

[zefarelly]

Its the air filter that gives it away, otherwise to the book

Originally Posted by Moosehead

Not an AppK Mustang

[JonWolfe]

Seeing Moosehead's photo of me and DaveGT6 prepping my Falcon reminds me that if we'd spent a bit less time trying to get it cool (when it had, unbeknown to us, blown a head gasket) and a bit more time on the brakes I might have gone a bit quicker...believe me it's near impossible to keep a car on the track with only the rear brakes working effectively. I had a truly monumental spin at the end of the hangar straight and decided to retire at that point...

[terence]

The Header Tank hunt wasn't really needed then.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by jminsh

A good report me thinks and smack on with the first impact of Watts and Forward as i had a birds eye view at that point he brought it all on himself and was only going to get it back with interest at Chaple curve ?? You forgot to mention me removing Leo at Copse on the first lap ??

Thanks, Jason, I didn't actually see it, as I was around Bridge/Luffield but you have confirmed what I suspected and it's no great surprise. Didn't know that you had removed Leo at Copse; altogether, it wasn't the best of weekends for him, was it?

Originally Posted by john ruston

So the American Stock cars had a race and ran into each other.Not a shock.
Seems to be one hooky car that will vanish or the other race entrants will throw their toys out of their pram and they have many more votes than the spectators.If Mr Watts thinks its that important should revert to modern racing where this sort of thing is acceptable.We don't need that type of driver in Historics!He's good but not a superstar.Someone explain to him we have quite enough decrepit old superstar drivers already and I have a four grand bill to prove the point.Don't see to many 60+ people in other sports pretending they still have it.News for them ,they should not do it if it costs others money.No problem with the Moss,Atwood brigade they have nothing to prove but the FI would have been's if only lot.
Can't imagine Jason doing anything wrong!

Agree with all of this; I suspect that we won't see the winning car much again although I don't think anything was exactly hidden, and it certainly didn't run away with the race, but then, if I was honest, I've not heard of Dean Forward and have no idea about his level of driving skill. It was a good race at the front as I suspect that Jason can testify to. However, it was the PW public response to that car that got to me.

Historic Racing has its own stars, all capable of driving racing cars far better than the rest of us but all aware of their own limitations and that they are driving valuable machinery, often owned by others. I'm sure they, as well as those of us who enjoy Historic racing, love to see old pros, once their careers have petered out, come and join in, provided they don't bring some of the more aggressive habits of their professional racing career with them. John has already mentioned two who enhance and grace our grids with their presence, but there are two or three who we could do well without if they continue to drive in an impatient and aggressive manner, and act in a graceless, arrogant way. This is Historic racing; it is supposed to be fun for both participants and spectators. Of course, there will always be a few pot hunters, but on the whole, we get great cars and good racing down the fields. Everyone involved knows that there are often huge discrepancies in the performance of both cars and drivers in these grids and race with that in mind. Even then, and driving with a safety margin, the best can get caught out, as we have seen recently, so we certainly don't want old pros bringing their touring car antics into the arena. Sorry, I'm not claiming to be spokesman for historic racing; this is merely my view, but I believe it will strike a chord with many.

Incidentally, guess who was driving the Allard in the pics attached to the bottom of this post?

Originally Posted by eigger

I agree; I presume the #13 car passed scrutineering. if PW had an issue with the eligibility of the car then this was a matter for discussion with the scrutineers/organisers. It wasn't as though DF was passing it off as App K whilst having a lot of goodies hidden inside the engine - the rear discs were plainly visible.

Agreed; see my comment above.

Originally Posted by brands

and finally....btw, excellent reporting John

Thank you, brands for your kind comment, your excellent pics, and your company at Abbey for much of the meeting.

[Ben Shuckburgh]

that's the first rally Allard I've ever seen!

[grantp]

Just for info.

Dean Forward seems to race with No. 13 in at least 2 classes.

Photos of his recent outing in an Alfa at Mallory here and here.

Its the dark blue one with the white front. Picture 5 in the first link and in the pack in picture 2 in the second as well as the third car in picture 4.

[john ruston]

That picture of the Allard saves lots of words.
Assume he is overtaking the OSCA? Is that Roger Earle/Tony Pickering car,a pair that have done as much for Historic Racing than virtually any other people with the D Type and the backing they give Stirling.What happens if he gives it a bit of a tap.
In Mr Watts words F-Stupid.He is not only one.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by grantp

Just for info.

Dean Forward seems to race with No. 13 in at least 2 classes.

Photos of his recent outing in an Alfa at Mallory here and here.

Its the dark blue one with the white front. Picture 5 in the first link and in the pack in picture 2 in the second as well as the third car in picture 4.

Thanks, Grant. So historic racing credentials then and one that I have not picked up on my ailing radar! I apologise for my ignorance.

Originally Posted by john ruston

That picture of the Allard saves lots of words.
Assume he is overtaking the OSCA? Is that Roger Earle/Tony Pickering car,a pair that have done as much for Historic Racing than virtually any other people with the D Type and the backing they give Stirling.What happens if he gives it a bit of a tap.
In Mr Watts words F-Stupid.He is not only one.

Indeed it does, John. 'Yes', he is overtaking, and 'yes' it is the Pickering/Earl OSCA.

[exnigel]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Indeed it does, John. 'Yes', he is overtaking, and 'yes' it is the Pickering/Earl OSCA.

If he is overtaking, recent F1 precedent would require him to concede the next corner as he is off the track, otherwise he would get a stop go penalty........on the otherhand if he is lapping the back marker it does seem rather impatient as I believe the pic is of Luffield and there is a long straight bit coming next on which his V8 would definitely outdrag the 1500cc Osca.

I was a flying visitor to the classic, as Chris Guest offered me a co drive in his Cooper MG in the Woodcote Trophy: it was tremendous fun, and we came second in our class thanks to Moss/Nuthall retiring with ten minutes to go. The race was spoiled a little with a safety car for the first 15 minutes after a first corner collision between two leading cars left them in the gravel.

Whilst it is not for me, a relative novice with two seasons of prewar racing under my belt, to comment about driving standards, and I personally have not experienced any aggressive or thoughtless behaviour, I do agree with both John Ruston and John Turner that the wide variety of car speeds and standards means that Historic racing needs to be careful to preserve a sense of it being a fun thing for us older men to do with more quarter given than the appears the case in the more modern stuff.

Nigel B

[John Turner]

Nigel, yes, it is in Luffield and I'm pretty certain that he was actually lapping rather than taking a position. The Allard was lapping about 25 seconds quicker than the OSCA and we are about 5 or 6 laps into the race here, I think.

[eigger]

Originally Posted by john ruston

.........No problem with the Moss,Atwood brigade they have nothing to prove but the FI would have been's if only lot.
............

I would add Bobby Verdon-Roe to the list of ex-pro drivers that enhance historic racing. Watching him drifting the DBR1 Aston gracefully around Club was a pleasure.

[exnigel]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Nigel, yes, it is in Luffield and I'm pretty certain that he was actually lapping rather than taking a position. The Allard was lapping about 25 seconds quicker than the OSCA and we are about 5 or 6 laps into the race here, I think.

25 seconds a lap is a lot, and the Brooklands Luffield section is one where staying behind a slower car loses a lot of time, and so the incentive to get past is high. Without seeing the build up it is difficult to see the whole picture but once you have chosen to pass on the inside it is difficult to change to the outside, and I would suspect that accounts for the rallycross line.

[terence]

Nothing wrong with going around the outside,if the corner/situation is weighed up before the manouver is undertaken.

[John Turner]

He was not forced into taking that line. He was behind the OSCA and when he saw that there was no gap simply turned in earlier and drove across the grass. I don't think in all the years that I have watched at Luffield, I've ever seen anyone in that position who wasn't forced there by someone turning in on a car already well alongside. This was not the case here.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by eigger

I would add Bobby Verdon-Roe to the list of ex-pro drivers that enhance historic racing. Watching him drifting the DBR1 Aston gracefully around Club was a pleasure.

Agreed, BV-R was excellent value and a very worthy replacement of Peter Hardman who lost his Leventis drives a couple of years back. It's a shame that Peter is rarely seen in historics now because he, too, was quick and entertaining.

[Colin McKay]

Hi, John T

Thanks for posting the pics of the Jag in race 8 - some background to the 1st one in the 3rd set:

Having made a fair start I was kicking myself for letting a group of 4 yanks slip away after chasing for a few laps when I should really have been able to get amongst them. On my own for a bit, then the Trevor Groom Mk2 (20) started reeling me in and for several laps he was on my tail, getting alongside at one point when I slid off on fluids coming out of Stowe - I saw it but was committed and couldn't avoid it whereas Trevor had taken a tighter line on the corner and I think avoided the worst of it. I was still on the inside at Vale and just about had enough momentum through Club to hold him off. Chris Scragg's Mk2 (47) wasn't far behind at this point I think. We did another couple of laps like this until on the exit from Luffield on the last lap Trevor Groom tried a little too hard and spun off allowing Steven Smith's Mustang (86) through while he recovered.

Of the other Brit hardware out there, Graeme Dodd (21, Mk2)was lapping a huge 8 secs faster than me (finishing an excellent 8th), and Les Ely was showing that his old Mk2 (31), now sold, can still do the business (18th), 4 secs a lap slower than Dodd.

Tony Dron had qualified Adam Gittings' lovely Zodiac just in front of me, but fell behind in the race finishing 27th, and the two Mk2's of Peter Burton (96) and Mike Cann (48) came in 29th & 30th. This was the first outing for the Burton car for about 10 years he told me, and the first time he had driven it. He did well to finish after gearbox problems in testing. Mike Cann, normally very quick, suffered problems with oil surge all weekend and was consequently obliged to treat the car with a degree of care.

The Mk7 of Graham Love came in last with only a 3.4 in what is a very large car, and I think there was a lot of debate in his garage about the front axle set up afterwards. As Andrew Davenall mentioned in an earlier post, he had wheel seating problems with the Austin and only managed 1 lap. His was the only DNF amongst the British contingent, 7 Yanks fell by the wayside. Not that I'm suggesting there's any significance in this ;-)