2012 Bathurst 12 Hour - 24-26 February

[nafe!]

I am aware of the date being picked to allow international competitors the chance to attend Bathurst. Hence why i also made the suggestion of a few weeks post clipsal to allow everyone to attend. This would fit into the international calender as well with the next crevantic race being in the middle of may i believe.

There is no need to look for some kind of unrest as the reasoning behind aus gt members not attending. The first round of their championship is one week later....theres your reason plain and simple. And its arguably their most important round with a huge spectator base giving their sponsors great exposure.

Bluesport your suggestion of v8supercars using its power to influence Aus Gt is not a stupid one at all, they are well known to use questionable tactics to achieve their goals. However in this case i dont believe it is the case at all its purely the proximity to clipsal.

The GT championship under its new management has also made moves to return to the shannons bill and is only running a few v8supercar events this year, so its becoming more unlikely that that kind of thing would occur.

Anybody know when the entry list is being confirmed? Friday was the official closing date for entries as far as im aware.

[rich07]

Nafe with the entrylist being a bit low on numbers I think they may use a bit of disgression with the cut off date for entries and thus the entrylist may be a bit late.

[KSM86]

wouldnt surprise me at all if a few of the bh12 hour event organisers were seen over in dubai trying to get a few more late entries

[Morris Dancer]

Would the Monaro 427 be allowed in to make up the numbers? Only joking, sort of ...

jd yort: Stop playing with semantics. How can you insult a post without insulting the poster? I'm not complaining to the moderators, and I'm not going anywhere (by choice, anyway), so you're stuck with me!

race69: Notwithstanding that the 1000km race at Mt Panorama didn't become an ATCC round until 1999, it's drawing a long bow to equate it and the ATCC with the Bathurst 12-hour and the AGTC.

Since the ATCC cars became the headline act at Mt Panorama in 1972, the national championship and the enduro have been synomous as far as the mass of touring car fans were concerned. Even as separate entities, they had a symbiotic relationship that benefitted everyone involved.

On the other hand, without a substantial fan base the AGTC teams get far more exposure as a support category at ATCC rounds (and even at the lower-profile Shannons Nationals race meetings) than at the Bathurst 12-hour where, as Frank Gardner used to say, there are only two men and a dog watching, and the dog's only there to keep the men in.

Tourer: You're spot-on.

Alfacors: The Bathurst 12-hour promoter has made it clear that the race is to become GT-oriented, so this thread belongs in Sportscar and GT Racing. The tourers are only allowed in to avoid the field being embarrassingly small.

[chavez]

The simple fact is that the race will not survive without a core group of competitors.

The core group will either need to be as part of an international or regional championship or from the local GT teams.

Relying on overseas entries to make up the vast majority of the grid when the race is not part of any championship is either foolish or naive.

Has there ever been a successful motor race run in Australia that didn't have at least one of these core groups involved?

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

Alfacors: The Bathurst 12-hour promoter has made it clear that the race is to become GT-oriented, so this thread belongs in Sportscar and GT Racing. The tourers are only allowed in to avoid the field being embarrassingly small.

Only allowed in

They have had their own class since 2007 and will continue to do so.

[St00ge]

Do we have updated entry list?

The 12 hr ad in the Auto Action sprukes 35+ entries and last list I saw had 28/29..

[Richard Craill]

There will be further news next week.

[Reload]

Originally Posted by Richard Craill

There will be further news next week.

Hopefully it will be good news regarding entrants as what was a promising beginning for this event has seen things hit the wall ?

[Richard Craill]

Originally Posted by Reload

Hopefully it will be good news regarding entrants as what was a promising beginning for this event has seen things hit the wall ?

No Wall.. more like a Christmas / NY break!

[EfiOz]

Those pesky holidays getting in the way again.

[woodduck97]

Originally Posted by chavez

The simple fact is that the race will not survive without a core group of competitors.

The core group will either need to be as part of an international or regional championship or from the local GT teams.

Relying on overseas entries to make up the vast majority of the grid when the race is not part of any championship is either foolish or naive.

ahhh...the race HAD a loyal, core group of competitors, with an integrated local championship that didnt rely on virtually any overseas entries..... Well, at least until 2010 when the powers that be decided that GT would be a better idea....

[Number25]

I dont post much here but I figure I might add my "Two cents". A GT race IS a far better idea. I love production car racing but the stand alone 12 hour race just for them I found immensely uninteresting! It was never going to gain popularity in that format, simply in the fact that people (Outside those who know someone competing) are never going to pay money to sit around for 12 hours to watch the same cars that are sitting in the car park go around, not to mention that nearly half the field were EVO's. Uninspiring.

I would much prefer to pay my money for the sheer sight and sound of GT cars any day. In my opinion a field of 20 GT cars beats a field of 20 EVO's racing 30 other cars any day of the week.

I went to last years 12 hour because of the new class format, and I admit I was only expecting to watch for a couple of hours max before leaving. However even with a small field of GT cars the race was highly entertaining on track and strategically, so we stayed until the cars crossed over Skyline for the very last time! Coming again this year, cant wait!

[Reload]

+1 number 25

[nafe!]

Originally Posted by Number25

I dont post much here but I figure I might add my "Two cents". A GT race IS a far better idea. I love production car racing but the stand alone 12 hour race just for them I found immensely uninteresting! It was never going to gain popularity in that format, simply in the fact that people (Outside those who know someone competing) are never going to pay money to sit around for 12 hours to watch the same cars that are sitting in the car park go around, not to mention that nearly half the field were EVO's. Uninspiring.

I would much prefer to pay my money for the sheer sight and sound of GT cars any day. In my opinion a field of 20 GT cars beats a field of 20 EVO's racing 30 other cars any day of the week.

I went to last years 12 hour because of the new class format, and I admit I was only expecting to watch for a couple of hours max before leaving. However even with a small field of GT cars the race was highly entertaining on track and strategically, so we stayed until the cars crossed over Skyline for the very last time! Coming again this year, cant wait!

Did you go to any of the races prior to 2011?

I do agree that the gt cars bring extra excitement and glamour to the event but the races in the years previous for anyone who was there in person would know were brilliant and far more exciting then last years race. (only 2 teams really had a chance of winning).

I happen to remember a BMW winning the 2010 race, and a HSV Wagon finishing 3rd in the year previous.

There were strong fields in every class battling it out to the back of the field. A large amount of pro drivers including current and past v8supercar drivers, champions, Bathurst 1000 winners etc all in the line up.

Given some consistent factory support from each major manufacture represented in the race it could have been a far bigger race then it was.

As it was i would argue that the race itself created a stronger production car championship with new cars built for bathurst now racing throughout the year.

Everything was very positive including spectator numbers on the rise, live streaming getting thousands of viewers etc.

I just say this because the race as it was great and didnt have a issue, if you hate production car racing i believe thats the individuals problem and not the racing itself as it was fantastic and was just like the late 60's and early 70's Bathurst 1000's.

But yes the gt cars do get more media and possibly more people interested so from that perspective the race will progress...its just a pity that it was at the expense of a group of competitors who were already putting on a brilliant race.

Lets hope the updated entry list features both more gt entries and more production cars.

[Belly13]

Originally Posted by Richard Craill

There will be further news next week.

This week or next week?

[scudd]

Originally Posted by nafe!

its just a pity that it was at the expense of a group of competitors who were already putting on a brilliant race.

as it has been said on here before, prody boys have their own class and their own trophy to race for. Just cause they aren't the headline act anymore shouldn't mean they pack up their bat and ball and blame someone else for evolution. I entered b class last year knowing that I couldn't win outright and got maybe 3 minutes tops of 3 hours worth of post production tv. I entered the race to be able to drive Bathurst for 12 hours and see what we could achieve as a team.

[Number25]

Originally Posted by nafe!

Did you go to any of the races prior to 2011?

I was at the 2008 event and left after 1.5 hours, however I missed the following two events as I was out of the country for 2 years. I was also at the last 24 hour race and Monaro opinions aside it was an awesome event and the 6 of us that travelled down from Queensland never slept a wink the whole race.

I love the production class and I'm not saying production cars don't have their place at the event, as they do and the more the better!

A production only event would have been a great success but would be no more than an enlarged state championship meeting in an already bland australian motorsport landscape.

Any more news on potential entries??

[R4z3rw33n]

Originally Posted by nafe!

Did you go to any of the races prior to 2011?

I do agree that the gt cars bring extra excitement and glamour to the event but the races in the years previous for anyone who was there in person would know were brilliant and far more exciting then last years race. (only 2 teams really had a chance of winning).

I happen to remember a BMW winning the 2010 race, and a HSV Wagon finishing 3rd in the year previous.

There were strong fields in every class battling it out to the back of the field. A large amount of pro drivers including current and past v8supercar drivers, champions, Bathurst 1000 winners etc all in the line up.

Given some consistent factory support from each major manufacture represented in the race it could have been a far bigger race then it was.

As it was i would argue that the race itself created a stronger production car championship with new cars built for bathurst now racing throughout the year.

Everything was very positive including spectator numbers on the rise, live streaming getting thousands of viewers etc.

I just say this because the race as it was great and didnt have a issue, if you hate production car racing i believe thats the individuals problem and not the racing itself as it was fantastic and was just like the late 60's and early 70's Bathurst 1000's.

But yes the gt cars do get more media and possibly more people interested so from that perspective the race will progress...its just a pity that it was at the expense of a group of competitors who were already putting on a brilliant race.

Lets hope the updated entry list features both more gt entries and more production cars.

I'm experiencing a great deal of difficulty sympathising with this viewpoint. How can the event's current trajectory/orientation be considered 'at the expense' of touring competitors?

The organisers haven't explicitly discriminated against touring entries; the cars remain eligible, they're welcomed.
Hell, I'm sure the organisers would be more than happy to concede the event's livelihood depends on a certain volume of such entrants.

The only conclusion I can draw, is one concerning the sole difference between the event under the current paradigm, and that of past years; In their current competition category, touring entrants are no longer eligible for outright victory.

Considering many of these entrants competed within the same, multi-class event (albeit with other entries competing for class victory below them) prior to the aforementioned change being enacted, it seems petulant and vindictive to whinge and moan solely because you're no longer 'top dog.'

They're eligible to compete and, despite what certain parties might believe, no meaningful information suggesting there's a personal vendetta against touring entrants has yet been presented.

Originally Posted by scudd

as it has been said on here before, prody boys have their own class and their own trophy to race for. Just cause they aren't the headline act anymore shouldn't mean they pack up their bat and ball and blame someone else for evolution. I entered b class last year knowing that I couldn't win outright and got maybe 3 minutes tops of 3 hours worth of post production tv. I entered the race to be able to drive Bathurst for 12 hours and see what we could achieve as a team.

Testify.

[Oldtony]

Agreed, but with the following thought that should be considered.
The means of putting together a program budget ( and it's quite considerable) is mostly very different between GT and the Prodys.
GT in Australia is mainly self funded by the entrants and drivers, either out of their own pocket or out of their own business.
Production touring is far more dependent on sponsorship. The sponsors putting up the money became very reluctant to part with their hard earned to support a car running down the field and getting probably less TV exposure than Scudd achieved. That also goes for a dealer or manufacturer entry.
The failure of series prod was in their not gaining enough manufacturer or dealer support for the showroom showdown concept, and thus getting very few high profile entries from that sector.
It is rather ironic that the GT class now enjoys manufacturer support for much higher cost overseas teams while most of the local GT people have picked up their bats and balls in favour of supporting the V8SC.
One thing you can bet on is that Scudd will improve on his TV exposure this year, and hopefully he is around for the Speed live broadcast of the cvlosing stages.

[woodduck97]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Agreed, but with the following thought that should be considered.
The means of putting together a program budget ( and it's quite considerable) is mostly very different between GT and the Prodys.
GT in Australia is mainly self funded by the entrants and drivers, either out of their own pocket or out of their own business.
Production touring is far more dependent on sponsorship. The sponsors putting up the money became very reluctant to part with their hard earned to support a car running down the field and getting probably less TV exposure than Scudd achieved. That also goes for a dealer or manufacturer entry.
The failure of series prod was in their not gaining enough manufacturer or dealer support for the showroom showdown concept, and thus getting very few high profile entries from that sector.
It is rather ironic that the GT class now enjoys manufacturer support for much higher cost overseas teams while most of the local GT people have picked up their bats and balls in favour of supporting the V8SC.
One thing you can bet on is that Scudd will improve on his TV exposure this year, and hopefully he is around for the Speed live broadcast of the cvlosing stages.

Spot on OldTony... a lot of the proddie guys needed to raise some sponsorship to run the event. No-one is interested in sponsoring a car that is going to be blown off the road by a poor man's Le Mans car every 9 laps or so. some of the proddie guys are also racers. They go to race. they want to race to win. A class win isnt the same as an outright win i am sorry...

I think this years race will be good with the entries that have been spoken about. But the simple fact of the matter is that with 10 decent cars you can have a reasonable race.. but 10 cars plus a smattering of whatever else the promoter is prepared to recieve ain't exactly viable. 50 production cars probably would be.

Let's be brutal. The only reason production cars are "welcomed" is because the promoter needs cars on grid. If 45 GT entries were recieved, you can bet that production cars would be flicked. Many of the production car classes (the smaller class cars) have already been flicked... and only the outright prod car class is "welcomed".

It is up to the individual as to want he or she wants to see. I know I want to see the B12hr continue. But with 25 cars rolling up, and with an apparent divide between B12hr management and AGT owners - one can't see clearly if the 2013 B12hr will run at all.....I know the GT guys are all gun-ho about it, but most of them didnt get rich by being dumb - and you can't hide the maths i am afraid gents...

In terms of crowd, I heard a rumour that the 2011 gate was less than the rain soaked 2010 gate... but I can't verify it and I doubt that the promoter will admit it either...

With production cars, at least the event had a solid base which was growing.. what it really needed was a series built behind it - which it now has... what might have been....

[porsche91722]

I'm speaking from a fans perspective, not a competitors. I've never been to a 12 hour before. I have never had any interest in going to see what was virtually, a club racing event in the past. I'm going this year, to see a good race, with some great overseas teams turning up, in what will hopefully be an improving event in coming years. The organizers, I am guessing, are trying to get a world class event up and running, that may be part of a series of endurance racing across the globe. If the race in its present form gains some legs, it may develop into an early endurance racing season event that will draw more and more overseas teams, which of course means that the locals will get pushed out. An unfortunate result, if it achieves success! SpeedTV, who seem to be having a love affair with Aus racing (at what and whose cost, I don't know), at the moment, are broadcasting the tail end of the race, which will further enhance its status world wide. Again, not a result that local teams may see as a good thing.
But I know one thing, I wouldn't be bothered even watching a weeks later TV highlights package of the old format race, whereas I'm really looking forward to heading down there this year to see the 12H. Last years race, I unintentionally watched for the whole 12 hours on the stream. Hopefully, this year will be just as good.

[B24]

I think some of the production car supporters are not really supporting the best alternative to the Bathurst 1000 since the Bathurst 24hr. All the points raised are all quite bias. Example: When the 12hr was limited non GT production car, there may have been 45+ cars but there were only 10 outright contenders. The rest were fighting for their class victories, making up the numbers as it has been stated(GT vs Proddies). I think its very unfair to claim the top level production cars are the victims of the GT spec cars as all the classes below the top level production car may also be labelled as victims of the high performance production cars.
So should there be only one class for the 12hr so everyone has a level playing field? No.
It really is a dry argument. I'm sure every team running (12hr 2012 and any other long distance race anywhere in the world) is over the moon to part of such a fantastic event. Sure, everyone wants to win but most are there for the journey, the experience and memories as much as the fans who come to watch are drawn by the same points.
On sponsorship, has anyone draft a plan which allows fair coverage to all the classes so viewers have a clear picture of the all the races going on for the B12hr? If not, why not? If sponsors feel they cannot receive enough exposure for 50% of the field why not put something together, everyone sign it, then negotiate with the promoter on more balanced format. If there is more depth in the coverage and more excitement in presentation (American GT series is an excellent example of how to cover a event) of the races within the race it could be a win win for everyone.

[Number25]

Originally Posted by woodduck97

Spot on OldTony... a lot of the proddie guys needed to raise some sponsorship to run the event. No-one is interested in sponsoring a car that is going to be blown off the road by a poor man's Le Mans car every 9 laps or so. some of the proddie guys are also racers. They go to race. they want to race to win. A class win isnt the same as an outright win i am sorry...

It is only the style of cars in each class that has changed, not the format. By that thinking, when it was a production only event, nobody outside of class A and B should have entered because they would never have a chance and a class win is not the same as an outright win. Why was it ok for those in the lower classes then and not the new "lower" classes?

It also applies to relative laptimes for each class/ Speed difference and how often they get lapped.

2010 Pole position was the Koundouris EVO 2:26.8533 compared to last place which was the Justin Mathews Yaris at a 3:09.4433. 42.5 seconds defference. Even using the second slowest car, it was still 30.5 seconds.

2011 Pole position, Lowndes Audi 2:09.1015 compared to last being a motorsport services BMW at 2:44.0704. 34.9 seconds difference.

My point is, the game is still the same through the field. Just a new top dog. And I prefer this dog.

This is the way the race is now, all arguments aside. Lets get behind it and support what can become a unique race in this country!

[Oldtony]

Don't get me wrong, it is a great event and hopefully I will be down there again to see it this year.
I was just replying to those who were critisizing the production car entrants for not coming along and "making up the field". Probably the future for the event is to be linked with the international endurance series.
That will increasingly see a move to VLN type endurance specials which unfortunately don't have any backup series here in Australia.
The only counter to that would be for the AGT entrants to support it strongly to ensure the future as an International standard GT3 event.
Right now it is a great event to attend (beats hell out of the Bogan run in October) but in international or local series standards it is niether fish nor fowl.
It certainly has no domestic manufacturer or dealer sponsor/entrant appeal.