[Tech Issue] Pirelli-The Tyre Story..

[Bononi]

I'm afraid that this is not going to happen...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

Well apparently not all the teams agree with Red Bulls complaints so they're not even united for or against what's happened. Teams are suffering de-laminations leading to safety fears and gear box changes etc and Pirelli need to do something about it. Testing a 2 year old car that still has a double diffuser is not going to help improve the rear tyres for today's cars. How many more de-laminations would there have been in Barcelona if all the teams were pushing 100% instead of backing off to save the tyres, who knows?

Plus I can't see Bernie being too bothered about it either, because my impression is that for this year at least he's happy to see anybody else bar Vettel win the title. The last thing he wants to see commercially is a return to the Ferrari dominance of 10 years ago.

I agree, why would Bernie be that bothered? At this juncture in his life it would seem his only interested in increasing the number of GPs on the calendar and making as much money as he can. After all he is not immortal but then this is Bernie, .

[jsTrecu]

So Ferrari, RBR and Lotus claim they were not invited to that test.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107733

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

The last thing he wants to see commercially is a return to the Ferrari dominance of 10 years ago.

No. Quite the opposite, I would have thought. Ferrari winning, with Alonso at the wheel, is big bucks for Bernie.

From article above:

Eric Boullier.

"They could have gained an advantage from this, and they did it because they could gain an advantage. But it is more to do with a breach of the sporting regulations."

Indeed.

[Greem]

Hrm...

So perhaps Pirelli want out, but if they quit they would receive a financial penalty. If the FIA get rid of them for not doing a good enough job, they'd have to pay out the remainder of the contract.

So Pirelli do something almost contractual, but not quite, which gives the FIA force majeure to terminate the contract penalty-free to both parties.

Sounds like the sort of under-the-table shenanigans that F1 is capable of to me.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by Greem

Hrm...

So perhaps Pirelli want out, but if they quit they would receive a financial penalty. If the FIA get rid of them for not doing a good enough job, they'd have to pay out the remainder of the contract.

So Pirelli do something almost contractual, but not quite, which gives the FIA force majeure to terminate the contract penalty-free to both parties.

Sounds like the sort of under-the-table shenanigans that F1 is capable of to me.

Not quite they have said they want to stay but their contract is up at the end of this year. It is now beginning to get late for a newcomer to get the contract from a logistics point of view.
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=463

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

It is now beginning to get late for a newcomer to get the contract from a logistics point of view.

Some would say that it's already far too late for any other tyre manufacturer to come into F1 and make tyres for the 2014 cars without having some kind of testing schedule being put in place. Until that is done, I don't see any way that you'll get anyone else taking up the tender. Even Pirelli are reluctant to do it, which is not their fault, it's the fault of F1 for doing what it usually does - dragging its feet in a crisis. It's failed to cut costs enough to make tyre testing a feasable excercise for all F1 teams and now it's paying the price.

[Marbot]

This article gives some idea of the time-line for any protest, what is actually being protested and any possible punishments.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107743

[steve_r]

The layman who tunes into a F1 race and sees Pirelli tyres in ribbons after half a dozen laps, is hardly going to rush out to his nearest Kwikfit and ask them to stick a set of Pirellis on his Ford Mondeo. If Pirelli lose the contract or walk away, which tyre manufacturers PR department is going to think it's a good idea to go for the F1 contract?

As always, there's all sort of political bull going on behind the scenes.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by steve_r

The layman who tunes into a F1 race and sees Pirelli tyres in ribbons after half a dozen laps, is hardly going to rush out to his nearest Kwikfit and ask them to stick a set of Pirellis on his Ford Mondeo. If Pirelli lose the contract or walk away, which tyre manufacturers PR department is going to think it's a good idea to go for the F1 contract?

As always, there's all sort of political bull going on behind the scenes.

By now I can't think of any manufacturer replacing Pirelli. But Marbot holds the contracts so he can say better.

[Sodemo]

Michelin could do it. They offer great tyres at great prices. They also have a range of tyres that offer good grip across the range and have unrivalled durability.

[jsTrecu]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Michelin could do it. They offer great tyres at great prices. They also have a range of tyres that offer good grip across the range and have unrivalled durability.

But the FIA doesn't want durability, they want a control tyre with high degradation "to make all races look like Canada 2010". That's why the F1 is in this ugly situation to begin with.
Is it possible that Michelin could accept that type of contract after seeing Pirelli getting all this bad PR for doing exactly what the FIA asked them to do ?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by steve_r

The layman who tunes into a F1 race and sees Pirelli tyres in ribbons after half a dozen laps, is hardly going to rush out to his nearest Kwikfit and ask them to stick a set of Pirellis on his Ford Mondeo.

It doesn't seem to stop the layman from having crap Chinese tyres fitted to his Mondeo, either.

The one thing that it may have done is make every Mondeo man rush out to his car to see just how much tread is left on his tyres. At this point, anything other than what is fitted to his car is clearly a superior tyre.

Originally Posted by steve_r

If Pirelli lose the contract or walk away, which tyre manufacturers PR department is going to think it's a good idea to go for the F1 contract?

Without some testing - bad idea.

Originally Posted by Bononi

By now I can't think of any manufacturer replacing Pirelli. But Marbot holds the contracts so he can say better.

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Michelin could do it. They offer great tyres at great prices. They also have a range of tyres that offer good grip across the range and have unrivalled durability.

Do you work for Michelin? It reads like an ad blurb.

Michelin could do it, but probably in a less interesting way than Pirelli have, and the one thing a tyre manufacturer can't afford is no publicity at all.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by jsTrecu

But the FIA doesn't want durability, they want a control tyre with high degradation "to make all races look like Canada 2010". That's why the F1 is in this ugly situation to begin with.
Is it possible that Michelin could accept that type of contract after seeing Pirelli getting all this bad PR for doing exactly what the FIA asked them to do ?

Pirelli were asked to make tyres that lasted for 20 laps, and most of the time that is exactly what they did, even in Barcelona and most certainly in Monaco.

From what I remember of Michelin's suggestions about tyres, they wanted to show how durable its tyres can be by creating a situation where points would be docked from your final points tally depending on how many tyres you used throughout the season. They also wanted to do this in competition with another/other tyre manufacturers.

Something along the lines of the Michelin green X challenge.

http://www.europeanlemansseries.com/...4_michelin.php

[bjohnsonsmith]

Would Bridgestone have kept their F1 tyre moulds?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Would Bridgestone have kept their F1 tyre moulds?

Probably, but it's also probable that lots of tyre manufacturers have got something along the lines of a 13 inch tyre. In fact, you would be quite surprised at the number of tyre manufacturers that make tyres that are really quite similar to F1 tyres.

But it's what is required from the tyres that seems to be the main stumbling block for another tyre manufacturer coming into F1 now.

[wolfhound]

An interesting artile on the subject from Joe Saward. He suspects there is a political angle to the Pirelli situation involving the FIA V's FOM and how tyre contracts are awarded.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2013/...urn-of-events/

[wolfhound]

Some more info on the Pirelli situation from Adam Cooper. The 2013 tyres are handed left and right but some teams have found an advatage in swoping them over by left tyres on the right and visa versa. The 2013 tyre are steel belted but the proposed new tyre to prevent delamination uses kevlar instead as was used in previous years. This construction does not use left and right tyres, and who is the only team to have tried them? The teams who have figured out how to use 2013 tyres could potentially lose all their advantage plus more.

http://adamcooperf1.com/2013/05/28/a...wapping-teams/

[jsTrecu]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Pirelli were asked to make tyres that lasted for 20 laps, and most of the time that is exactly what they did, even in Barcelona and most certainly in Monaco.

From what I remember of Michelin's suggestions about tyres, they wanted to show how durable its tyres can be by creating a situation where points would be docked from your final points tally depending on how many tyres you used throughout the season. They also wanted to do this in competition with another/other tyre manufacturers.

Something along the lines of the Michelin green X challenge.

http://www.europeanlemansseries.com/...4_michelin.php

I fail to see how the X Challenge competition could fit in a performance (sprint) oriented championship. It's a good marketing tool in endurance racing, but F1 teams would never sacrifice the fastest strategy to do this would they ?

[jsTrecu]

Pirelli to test but not race modified 2013 F1 tyres in Canada
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107752

So now they are delaying the introduction of the new tyres after the Mercedes test was so critizised, all this crap will last the whole season at this rate...

[Bononi]

What a soapbox opera...

[Moneyseeker]

Slightly off topic, but a few years back (during the period when the f1 tyre supply was still in limbo)I was at a lunch with someone very senior from a well known tyre maker who offered the opinion that F1 was a no win situation for a tyre maker...offering the reason that a tyre manufacturer would get none of the credit and all of the blame...

If a driver/car wins - the driver/car/team get the credit - no mention of tyres
If a tyre issue affects the result or car doesn't perform as designed - the tyre manufacturer gets the blame.

He also referred to the fact that tyre sizes in F1 are irrelevant to tyre marketing nowadays where premium tyres are focused on large wheel rim sizes and that the values of performance yet durability are not in line with tyres that only last 20 or 30 laps.

That conversation was quite interesting, bearing in mind where tyres sit now in F1.

[wnut]

Mercedes' problem with the "Pirelli Tyre" test after the Spanish GP raises all sorts of questions.

http://www.pitpass.com/49166-Testing-times-for-Mercedes

Wonder how big the contract is to supply Mercedes with road tyres is?

[321Go]

Pirelli are holding a press conference from Italy soon. Wonder what it could be about? Withdrawing from F1?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by 321Go

Pirelli are holding a press conference from Italy soon. Wonder what it could be about? Withdrawing from F1?

Losing the FIAT road car tyre supply contract!