USCC (leave your axe outside)

[Jack Spratt]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Perhaps not really--they may have larger air restrictors, but I'd bet that the spec Conti/Hoosier rubber is inferior in terms of performance to the Michelin or Dunlop tires that they run in Europe.

This part tells the story. That small restrictor increase did not and cannot make up for the deficiency created by the tire situation.

[Holt]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

The P2s have already been dialled way back with limited aero and rock hard spec tires and DP being given a major power boost so having DP "equal" in terms of performance is already more than a little disingenuous. They are boring technically and to watch on track. Last year at Sebring we had LMP1 space ships win overall, they are breathtaking to watch the corners and even more stunning to look at in the paddock with all the panels off. To see a glorified 1970's Trans AM car, as they were brilliantly described yesterday, win overall almost makes my stomach turn.
Let's just give DP more and more power and more and more downforce until they out-accelerate and corner the same as P2 cars while the P2 cars race at a spec LESS than their specified rule set. Brilliant.

Dump the DPs and let the 4 competent P2 cars from the ALMS be the top class? If that were the case at Daytona Muscle Milk would have won by 14 laps. The WEC ruined the chances of USCC ever fielding a competitive P1 class, so that option was out the window too.

Why focus on all the bad of now? Im looking forward to a bright future. In a couple of years we're going to see top teams like Ganassi run ACO spec prototypes, with the most exciting part of that being we could see the team at Le Mans. The DPs are not staying, they're all but confirmed to be on the way out. So the way I see Im happy that they're here to boost the car count until the new rules.

I can wait. P2 isnt the same class it was in 2008. Theres no real factory teams like Penske Porsche. The class isnt all that hot. All the real innovation is being done at the P1 level. Again, I can wait.

Originally Posted by jeast

I keep saying any winner of the 12 Hours post 2012 needs an asterisk next to their name to note the dumbed down spec nascar joke years.

If Oak Racing won Sebring, do they get an asterisk? This reminds me so much of the Champ Car and IRL merger. The Champ Car fans had to deal with the old Dallara for a couple of years and then the series finally got a good car. Now the racing is great and almost everyone is happy. The same situation is very likely to repeat itself in USCC.

Theres really nothing that can be done for a couple of years, so I see no reason to get negative or upset about it.

Originally Posted by somebodysb2

As of right now, 2014 spec DP's are nothing more than tube-framed coffins.


The ACO does it differently.

The ACO isnt exactly a perfect standard of safety. They allowed large mature trees to be right next to the guardrails at Le Mans. They allowed camera men and journalists right behind a barrier with no catch fence at Le Mans during McNish's crash. Pure luck is the reason why the ACO does not have more fatalities on its hands in sportscars. Luck had nothing to do with Gidley's crash. The car hit another in the worst possible way, and it held up enough for him to survive.

[Rodger Davies]

Good post sir

[Matt]

Very good.

[jeast]

Originally Posted by Holt

Dump the DPs and let the 4 competent P2 cars from the ALMS be the top class? If that were the case at Daytona Muscle Milk would have won by 14 laps. The WEC ruined the chances of USCC ever fielding a competitive P1 class, so that option was out the window too.

Why focus on all the bad of now? Im looking forward to a bright future. In a couple of years we're going to see top teams like Ganassi run ACO spec prototypes, with the most exciting part of that being we could see the team at Le Mans. The DPs are not staying, they're all but confirmed to be on the way out. So the way I see Im happy that they're here to boost the car count until the new rules.

I can wait. P2 isnt the same class it was in 2008. Theres no real factory teams like Penske Porsche. The class isnt all that hot. All the real innovation is being done at the P1 level. Again, I can wait.

Sebring has never had problems with P1.

Before the merger Ganassi was looking for away out of sports car racing. How long are they going to be around without Nascar subsidies.

Originally Posted by Holt

If Oak Racing won Sebring, do they get an asterisk? This reminds me so much of the Champ Car and IRL merger. The Champ Car fans had to deal with the old Dallara for a couple of years and then the series finally got a good car. Now the racing is great and almost everyone is happy. The same situation is very likely to repeat itself in USCC.

Theres really nothing that can be done for a couple of years, so I see no reason to get negative or upset about it.

LMP2 is spec too, but at least the design is not from 30 years ago.

You are completely wrong about Indycar they alienated Champ Car fans with a ugly Spec pig of a car and now they have zero fans and are on the verge of death. Champ Car fans just gave up and moved on. Is that how you want sports car racing?

Originally Posted by Holt

The ACO isnt exactly a perfect standard of safety. They allowed large mature trees to be right next to the guardrails at Le Mans. They allowed camera men and journalists right behind a barrier with no catch fence at Le Mans during McNish's crash. Pure luck is the reason why the ACO does not have more fatalities on its hands in sportscars. Luck had nothing to do with Gidley's crash. The car hit another in the worst possible way, and it held up enough for him to survive.

At least they care enough to test.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Holt

The ACO isnt exactly a perfect standard of safety. They allowed large mature trees to be right next to the guardrails at Le Mans. They allowed camera men and journalists right behind a barrier with no catch fence at Le Mans during McNish's crash. Pure luck is the reason why the ACO does not have more fatalities on its hands in sportscars. Luck had nothing to do with Gidley's crash. The car hit another in the worst possible way, and it held up enough for him to survive.

Pretty much every track in the world allows camera men and journalists right behind the guardrail, including Daytona and pretty much every other US track.

No, luck isn't the reason that there aren't more fatalities. Safer cars are the reason. LMP1s had violent crashes several times, including several airborne incidents and there is a total of 0 fatalities there.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by Holt

Why focus on all the bad of now? Im looking forward to a bright future. In a couple of years we're going to see top teams like Ganassi run ACO spec prototypes, with the most exciting part of that being we could see the team at Le Mans. The DPs are not staying, they're all but confirmed to be on the way out. So the way I see Im happy that they're here to boost the car count until the new rules.

If you read my thoughts of the 24, I came away with a lot of positives - the quality of the entrants being one of them. The next 3 years are compromise, I think we have all accepted that, as much as both sides might begrudge it. Does that mean that DP should be given a farcical advantage in the meantime? Does that mean the fans and entrants should not have input with regards to the on track product and broadcasting for these NEXT 3 YEARS?
How many fans will stick around if there are BS yellows, stupid rules, constant tinkering with BoP, and MRN?
The reality is while the future has the potential to be bright, the two sides of management both have dismal resumes at running a successful series. End of the day even if we end up with cars that are congruent with global rules, the likelihood of the premiere race cars on the planet being excluded from the marquis events is still a huge step back from where we were before the NASCARization of the sport we love.
I am giving them the benefit of the doubt for a couple of rounds but if this thing is a DP cake walk and we're dealing with competition yellows, wave bys, etc. then the WEC will be the only game in town. Many of us here are not just keyboard jockeys, we spend a lot of time and money attending and following endurance racing, alienate us at your peril Daytona...

[Maelochs]

Pretty sure most photographers would gladly risk not being behind a catch fence if it meant getting better shots. And Audi doesn't get an asterisk for its recent Sebring and Petit wins---and it Really had no competition.

But seriously, Holt hits it in a few places. So long as DP and P2 are Properly balanced, let them entertain us for a few seasons. Then they will be gone.

As to whether Ganassi stays in sports car racing ... that really depends on how well TUSC does. I for one think that having a field of 14-18 Real prototypes will be awesome, and if TUSC can make it financially feasible for the current teams for the next few years, there is no reason why we won't see that kind of grid in 2017---18 of the best prototypes around, racing on the best tracks in North America, with some actual Endurance races thrown in.

That is why I am so upset about the things TUSC has done wrong---if they would only smarten up and do this right Everyone comes out miles ahead.

If TUSC can just drop the LDWB and keep its yellow flags in its pockets, I'd say we won't have too much to complain about until 2017.

Not that that would stop us. Go over to some IndyCar boards and almost everyone will tell you the car sucks, the schedule sucks, the series sucks, the driver line-up sucks ... and those are the fans, and as Holt pointed out, the racing the past two years has been some of the best in a couple decades.

TUSC isn't perfect, and DPs will be DPs until they are gone, but TUSC could put on some really good racing without having to work too hard. Let's hope.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

So long as DP and P2 are Properly balanced, let them entertain us for a few seasons. Then they will be gone.

That is what I am saying

Originally Posted by Maelochs

That is why I am so upset about the things TUSC has done wrong---if they would only smarten up and do this right Everyone comes out miles ahead.

Yep

Originally Posted by Maelochs

If TUSC can just drop the LDWB and keep its yellow flags in its pockets, I'd say we won't have too much to complain about until 2017.

And doesn't over reach with BoP

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Not that that would stop us. Go over to some IndyCar boards and almost everyone will tell you the car sucks, the schedule sucks, the series sucks, the driver line-up sucks ... and those are the fans, and as Holt pointed out, the racing the past two years has been some of the best in a couple decades.
TUSC isn't perfect, and DPs will be DPs until they are gone, but TUSC could put on some really good racing without having to work too hard. Let's hope.

Agreed.
Look, I really enjoyed my time at Daytona up until 23:30 into the race. We all knew DP would win there... they have no business winning at Sebring.

[jeast]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Audi doesn't get an asterisk for its recent Sebring and Petit wins---and it Really had no competition.

No because they are they best in the world, The ALMS didn't ban the best cars so their teams didn't have to compete.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

18 of the best prototypes around, racing on the best tracks in North America, with some actual Endurance races thrown in.

Thats my problem they are not the best in the world. Nascar just wants to be mediocre.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by somebodysb2

As of right now, 2014 spec DP's are nothing more than tube-framed coffins.


The ACO does it differently.

Why show the picture of the DP after they used the jaws of life to cut Memo out?

[jeast]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Why show the picture of the DP after they used the jaws of life to cut Memo out?

Here you go way before the Jaws and not much better.

[Breitling24]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Why show the picture of the DP after they used the jaws of life to cut Memo out?

Here's another, borrowed from the www. Doesn't look a whole lot different, does it?
Seen clearly in the previous pic, the drivers door rollcage section has collapsed. Steering wheel and dash look to be pushed into driver.

[JHamilton]

[Breitling24]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Yeah, which is kinda what they did to get Memo out.

(hardly axe grinding, mearly answering the guy's question)

[jeast]

I like this better


Seriously are we just supposed to shut up and take Dps and second rate racing for the rest of our lives?

[jeast]

Originally Posted by Breitling24

Here's another, borrowed from the www. Doesn't look a whole lot different, does it?
Seen clearly in the previous pic, the drivers door rollcage section has collapsed. Steering wheel and dash look to be pushed into driver.

Completely collapsed.

[MoMedic9019]

Without a doubt, 30 more mph, and Gidley is dead.

I don't think anyone has honestly acknowledged that the DP is an unsafe car. It clearly is.

Say what you will, but a P2 would have fared well better here. Well enough that Gidley walks away from that accident.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Without a doubt, 30 more mph, and Gidley is dead.

I don't think anyone has honestly acknowledged that the DP is an unsafe car. It clearly is.

Say what you will, but a P2 would have fared well better here. Well enough that Gidley walks away from that accident.

We´ll never know that so stop speculating. Until both cars are put through the same crash tests we cannot tell what would have happened to a P2 car in a (somewhat) similar incident.

[Maelochs]

(First off, my apologies to everybody. I woke up before dawn, chugged some coffee, and found out I didn't have to work until this afternoon. We know what happens with idle hands (and revved-up idle brains) and here is proof.

"Seriously are we just supposed to shut up and take Dps and second rate racing for the rest of our lives?"

Seriously? Considering that we have no reason to believe DPs will survive past 2016 and pretty fair reasons not to ... how realistic is this question?

As for second-rate racing ... I was at the Rolex and I didn't see much. Maybe if I had watched the race on TV it would have been apparent.

The Rules are not sporting rules; they are entertainment rules. That bothers me a lot. Specifically LDWB and Television yellows.

The Racing was as real as at any other race I have attended or watched.

Were these the "Best Cars in the World"?

No, and arguably neither was any of the ALMS grids once Audi and Porsche pulled out (pretty clearly demonstrated in those few races when Peugeot and/or Audi came back.) But we still had great racing in ALMS---people raved about it.

As for Memo Gidley's crash, I look forward to seeing the independent crash tests each of us have performed (sorry, I haven't gotten around to it yet, but I see the rest have ... )

As Coach EP says, "We´ll never know that so stop speculating. Until both cars are put through the same crash tests we cannot tell what would have happened to a P2 car in a (somewhat) similar incident."

In any case ... Safety is always an issue, but how many of us have ever stopped being fans because racing is an inherently unsafe sport? On the other hand, how many objected to the beefier roll cages Rolex Series demanded in its GaGT class? Hmmmm .....

There is a real difference between acting out your emotional likes and dislikes, and engaging is reasoned discussion---as I well know, having fully explored both aspects.

Hating DPs is fine, if it makes you feel better (questionable if hate ever makes someone feel better, but that's a different website) but trying to justify that emotional reaction by grabbing disjointed bits of information or inventing information shows the slip into psychotic obsession, where reason becomes secondary to the emotion.

Am I Glad that DPs are in the series?

Sort of, yes. I watched ALMS grids shrink to the point that the series needed PC, a Spec Class (the very thing for which people derided the Rolex Series) just to keep from looking anemic. While this was anathema when Rolex did it ... well, ALMS had good reasons (or lame prototype grids, take your pick.)

Through almost all of 2012 and 2013 there was effectively a single P1 car on the grid; Muscle Milk was in a class by itself. Was that the Best racing?

DPs keep involved a lot of teams which are every bit as skilled and professional as any ALMS or WEC team, and those teams not only put cars on the grid, they will be putting cars on the grid in 2017, when TUSC should be racing much better machinery.

Boot the DPs, and TUSC is back to where ALMS was---which was financial ruin, in case we have forgotten. Seriously, what kind of race would the Rolex have been? A typical 2012-2013 ALMS race---MMPR wins by many laps and there is one other top-class prototype running at the finish. Yeah, it didn't work in 2012 or 2013 either.

And yes, some fans will say "I would rather watch two P2s that 12 DPs" which is fine (because we all can ignore that P2s are as tightly rule-bound as DPs) except that those few fans are not in the Business of racing.

Those fans who would be happy watching MMPR thrash Dyson for another several seasons need to become billionaires so they can prop up the series; see, Most fans won't watch one car beat another car by multiple laps in every single race. Most fans want a Lot of cars that can contest the overall win.

In terms of teams being able to actually Afford to race, the ALMS model was a failure; that's why there weren't more teams.

So, DPs bring at least a chance that the series will be financially feasible going forward. Take them away and we will all be watching WEC and PWC.

Also ... Why do people hate DPs? They are primitive, compared to P2s (many of which were based on the 2004 Courage C65.)

I understand that DPs are basically some modern bits hung on a chassis from forty years ago, and I don't much like it. Historic racing is great within its own context, but for a top-tier series, not so much.

On the other hand, DPs have been updated to the point where that are competitive with P2s. Somehow no one cried when Acura was racing a rebranded Courage C75 against the Audi R10---no one complained that one car was primitive and horribly unadvanced.

And no one complained when the Oak Morgan-Nissan (basically an updated 2007 C75 with a stock-block V8) passed DPs through the Daytona infield. No one complained because the car was not cutting-edge; in fact, everybody was thrilled to see a P2 (which many called a spec, filler class a year or two before) doing its thing.

(As for the aesthetics of the cars, that is wholly subjective, but I personally am Really glad the Gen2s are gone. Gen3 are a lot more palatable to me---but some folks might not like P2 chassis. Taste is subjective, so let's drop it.)

For those whose biggest problem with TUSC is the presence of DPs, I can accept your complaint. I hear it, I acknowledge it. I also welcome your rational, viable suggestions for forming a new series which can put enough cars on the grid to get a TV contract, keep the teams fed, and expand in the future.

ALMS 2.0 won't work, for the same reasons ALMS 1.0 couldn't---no money for promotion, so no sponsor value, no income, teams had to leave.

TUSC 2014-2016 is a Compromise. We get it. It is not the series anyone Really wants. But my question to everyone is, Where's your alternative? What would You have done to put over a dozen prototypes on the grid in 2014?

The DP teams weren't interested (or financially able) to buy new machinery for a new series which might not work (and while the upgrades were expensive, they were still cheaper than a whole new P2 and a bunch of spares.) The P2 teams ... oh wait ... there were no P2 teams. Level 5 and ESM were pretty much the entire P2 grid in ALMS, and I am really glad Ed Brown decided to back TUSC, or it would have been Zero P2s, all DPs.

Those DPs are keeping the series alive right now. Hate them if you will, but until you can find at least half-a-dozen P2 teams (Libra doesn't count) then we should be thankful that the compromise solution involves updating the DPs a little.

I am not going to rant on about the LDWB and fake cautions (much.) All I will say is, even if the field consisted of 20 factory P1 cars, I would be outraged and have to leave if the LDWB and fake cautions were part of the series.

Take away the DPs and the series goes broke. Keep the LDWB and fake cautions, and the series is not racing.

Pick your fight.

[Dodge_Swinger]

Great post!

DPs aren't my favorite, but at least in terms of PERFORMANCE, they're OK for now. If the technical regs would allow a little more freedom for the DP teams to tweak, as suggested by the DP crew chief in the Kirby article, I would have no problem with them at all, other than they can't be raced anywhere else. Of course I want the same latitude for P2. I know it's not financially feasible, but open tire regs would remove pretty much every technical objection I have regarding the current proto class. I might even LIKE DPs if the teams had more latitude to engineer the cars. Blasphemy, I know.

It's the TV yellows and the wave arounds that are unacceptable. Those problems are simple to fix. If TUSC isn't going change, they need to cowboy-up and admit that the TV yellows and wave arounds are in place to make sure that people with short attention spans are entertained.

If last week's Super Bowl had been run under IMSA regs, Denver would have been given a touchdown at the end of each quarter to keep the casual fan interested. As Maleochs has stated earlier, fans of any other sport would not put up with artificially "managing" the score to keep things "close".

I think DP, prior to TUSC, was designed for a NASCAR race management mindset. They had little aero and hard tires, which would make them spin easier, thus bringing more opportunities to throw a yellow. The tube frame was there not only to contain initial purchase cost, but also repair costs, because GA encouraged the "rubbin' is racin'" style, which results in more incidents and more opportunities to throw a caution. I think a worst-case scenario for NASCAR would be a race with no cautions at all. That would be a best-case scenario to me. A caution-free race would be decided solely by preparation, driver skill and race strategy. Even a Cup race would be interesting to me under that scenario.

I wonder what Atherton or Bennett would say if asked how they felt about a caution-free race? I think a caution period ishould only be to make the track safe for racing as quiickly and safely as possible, not an opportunity to bunch the field. I think it should be a rare occurrence when cars benefit from a FCY, as far a gaining back a free lap.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Dodge_Swinger

I wonder what Atherton or Bennett would say if asked how they felt about a caution-free race? I think a caution period ishould only be to make the track safe for racing as quiickly and safely as possible, not an opportunity to bunch the field. I think it should be a rare occurrence when cars benefit from a FCY, as far a gaining back a free lap.

Those aren't the people who you would need to ask, if you are referencing the FCY at Daytona near the end.

[Dodge_Swinger]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Those aren't the people who you would need to ask, if you are referencing the FCY at Daytona near the end.

Atherton was asked in the Parente interview if TUSC was a sport or entertainment. He said it was "entertainment with integrity/credibility". Atherton has been the most visible and vocal mouthpiece for the series. The question would be "what are your thoughts about a theoretical caution-free race?" This question is more about nailing down the "philosophy" of the series. I would also ask their feelings about a team winning a race ten laps ahead of the second place team. I'm not talking about a car that is five seconds a lap quicker than everyone else, I'm talking about a team that wasn't involved in any accidents with great drivers and a top notch crew. Seeing three out of four class podiums all on the same lap after 24 hours is new to me.

I would argue that Sprint Cup, long extolled as the pinnacle of "close racing", wouldn't be nearly as close without the liberal application of yellow flags, regardless of how "spec" the cars are. If NASCAR didn't change a single thing other than their use of yellow flags, I thiink you would see races where only a fraction of the field finished on the lead lap. I'd like to see numbers, but my impression is that the vast majority of pit stops in NASCAR are done under yellow, with the whole field pitting a the same time. The only time I see someone pitting other than a caution is due to some mechanical issue, rather tha race strategy.

NASCAR openly stated a few years back that they were liberal about throwing flags because fan surveys said that the most exciting things about a NASCAR race were the start and the re-starts after a caution. I've also read that NASCAR likes everyone to pit at the same time because it makes it easy for the fans to see who has the faster pit crew. They all come in at once and the first car out has the fastest crew.

My point is that Atherton and Bennett have been sharing the Vision of this series from day one. If part of that Vision is to artificially create close racing through the use of yellow flags, then say so. NASCAR admitted it did for Cup and the fans seem to be OK with it. Maybe most TUSC fans are, too. Just tell us.

[chernaudi]

For the record, I was a fan of NASCAR until Brian France and his cronies started to screw with it. And I'm not a fan of the "phantom" yellow flags.

A lot of the gimmicks in racing are about getting that 18-25 male demographic, who either are fans of racing, or they're not. Hell, not to sound sexist, but why not use gimmicks to get women to watch racing? After all, it's only fair to state that like 52% of the world's population is female, and I do know plenty of women who are race fans.

My point is that trying to lure a whole, divided demographic is the wrong way to to do it. Appeal to those who you know are race fans first and hope that they can get their friends interested. Word of mouth advertizing never hurt anyone as long as those using the word of mouth aren't bashing the product. Of course, as indicated, that does work both ways, though...

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Dodge_Swinger

Atherton was asked in the Parente interview if TUSC was a sport or entertainment. He said it was "entertainment with integrity/credibility".

Noting that I said "if you are talking about that last Daytona FCY" It would certainly seem as though Atherton has drank the NASCAR koolaid though.

What exactly is Entertainment with Integrity/Credibility? Whose definition of Integrity/Credibility? But you do make a good point about asking directly.