Nissan LMP1 Discussion

[joeb]

Originally Posted by philipp

Hi guys
this is my first post

glad to be a part of this forum

did I understand it right (second paragraf)

The GT-R LM will be front engined???

http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/les...s-du-vendredi/

Welcome to the forum!

I would be interested to see a modern front engined LMP. It's been a while since the Panoz days.

[carbon_titanium]

a front engined lmp1? basicly a GT500 or DTM with a different bodywork...

[templer]

I don't think that that front-mid engined LMP1 nowadays would make any sense .
With the engine in forward position the cockpit canopy is shifted backwards. The back cover is too near to the rear wing so that don't get an good enough airflow to the rearwing as the distance between rear roll cage and rear wing is too short for a proper tear drop shape.

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by templer

I don't think that that front-mid engined LMP1 nowadays would make any sense .
With the engine in forward position the cockpit canopy is shifted backwards. The back cover is too near to the rear wing so that don't get an good enough airflow to the rearwing as the distance between rear roll cage and rear wing is too short for a proper tear drop shape.

Could it be possible that with the engine forward, they eliminate the rear wing, or try a different wing???

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by joeb

I would be interested to see a modern front engined LMP. It's been a while since the Panoz days.

It's not the greatest design, but, it could work if done right. If Nissan plan to carry the GTR lines, it's plausible.

[deggis]

Sounds unrealistic. Such fundamental design decision favouring non-optimal route like that would sound like being different just for the sake of being different. Perfect fit for their PR though.

[J Jay]

Surely a front-engined design would put too much stress on the front tyres (assuming there are motors on the front wheels)?

[deltawing]

The DeltaWing was unrealistic too..... until it turned around the corner for real.

[templer]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Could it be possible that with the engine forward, they eliminate the rear wing, or try a different wing???

For that you have to ask a race engineer but I am pretty sure you cannot get sufficient downforce if you design a car with without a rear wing as the open rules in terms of the design of a more efficient rear diffusor like on the 56th garage project is not allowed in the LMP1 rules. And you have no chance to position the rear wing in another position as far back and as far high as possible. Andy Thorby mentioned during his work on the LMP07 Panoz that a closed car will not work with the engine in position it was on that design. And we all now it was a front-mid engine car. You can all try different routes and Nissan can try such a layout but if they do i am sure for 100% that they have not
the slighthest chance against Audi, Porsche and Toyota.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by deltawing

The DeltaWing was unrealistic too..... until it turned around the corner for real.

I wasn't saying a car like that itself would be unrealistic, but remember it's no longer going to be a lone G56 car with no competition. Just think about the compromises and issues that would come along with the design. Provably? Case: Panoz...

Btw, if the 2D drawing supplied in the press kit is based on a real design at all, then that should shut down this rumor.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Surely a front-engined design would put too much stress on the front tyres (assuming there are motors on the front wheels)?

The front tires will be alleviated since most of the GT500 GT-R cars have tires suitable for their configuration. It only needs to be stronger.

[templer]

Originally Posted by deggis

I wasn't saying a car like that itself would be unrealistic, but remember it's no longer going to be a lone G56 car with no competition. Just think about the compromises and issues that would come along with the design. Provably? Case: Panoz...

Btw, if the 2D drawing supplied in the press kit is based on a real design at all, then that should shut down this rumor.

I asked Andy Blackmore if the car under the wrap was a kind of placeholder LMP1 design done by himself or if it was a real CAD pattern of the NISMO GTR LMP1. Only answer was "That is the question"

[deggis]

Originally Posted by templer

I asked Andy Blackmore if the car under the wrap was a kind of placeholder LMP1 design done by himself or if it was a real CAD pattern of the NISMO GTR LMP1. Only answer was "That is the question"

Hmm...

[jee]

Would it be allowed by the rules to move the driver cell out of the centerline and place the engine next to the driver?

[carbon_titanium]

a front engine will require a longer drive shaft to transmit torque to the rear axle! is not the best idea for a 24 hours race under the reliability point of view, and it will require a a lot of extra time to be replaced compared to a mid-engined car. Useless to say that this drive shaft has to pass somehow and someway through the monocoque...

[hondafan37]

How fast could be a Nissan GTR GT500 with 180 kg less?
Current GT500 with 1050 kg are as fast as the Rebellion LMP1.
What would happen with 870 Kg?

[templer]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

How fast could be a Nissan GTR GT500 with 180 kg less?
Current GT500 with 1050 kg are as fast as the Rebellion LMP1.
What would happen with 870 Kg?

Sorry but you compare apples with bananas. Th Rebellion LMP1 is at its early development stage. The team is still looking for the right set-up for the car and there is a lot more to come.
A GT car will never be on the same speed level like a P1. It's much more comprosied by its design parameters like frontal area, airflow over the car and the cockpit towards the rear wing. The downforce and much more important the L/D figures are far away from a P1. Compare the distance of the rear deck height to the rear wing and have a look at the tear drop shape of the P1 cockpit canopy keeping the airflow attached to the bodywork and compare this with a GT or GT500 car.

There is no chance to get any honour at LM with the use of the GT500 car in the LMP1 class.

[carbon_titanium]

hondafan hit a good point, actually the 2014 GT500 have been already faster than the 2013 lola rebellion at fuji! even if 120kg heavier. The lola rebellion surely is faster than R-one... so 2014 GT500 are faster than R-one and with a weight of 870kg very likely could be faster than works lmp1.

Anyway are two categories that can't be compared... beyond chassis and aero differences, I think that the new 2.0 L4 turbo hybrid of GT500 are sprint oriented engines and would need a lot of work to be reliable and competitive in a 24 hours race.
Look at toyota... they prefered to stick with an updated version of the old RV8K than use the already developed 2.0 L4 turbo for the TS040

[TF110]

Originally Posted by templer

Sorry but you compare apples with bananas. Th Rebellion LMP1 is at its early development stage. The team is still looking for the right set-up for the car and there is a lot more to come.
A GT car will never be on the same speed level like a P1. It's much more comprosied by its design parameters like frontal area, airflow over the car and the cockpit towards the rear wing. The downforce and much more important the L/D figures are far away from a P1. Compare the distance of the rear deck height to the rear wing and have a look at the tear drop shape of the P1 cockpit canopy keeping the airflow attached to the bodywork and compare this with a GT or GT500 car.

There is no chance to get any honour at LM with the use of the GT500 car in the LMP1 class.

No, he was speaking of the Lola Rebellion used in 2013. 1020kg + success ballast and the GTR GT500 was able to do high 1:28's in qualifying at Fuji.

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Could it be possible that with the engine forward, they eliminate the rear wing, or try a different wing???

Thumbs up for thinking outside the box!

[joeb]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

How fast could be a Nissan GTR GT500 with 180 kg less?
Current GT500 with 1050 kg are as fast as the Rebellion LMP1.
What would happen with 870 Kg?

Perhaps it could be as fast as lmps at some tracks, but with the aero disadvantage of the gt shape it would get killed at le mans. Also let's not forget the fuel economy impact, the gt shaped car would take much more fuel to match the LMP performance levels.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by joeb

Perhaps it could be as fast as lmps at some tracks, but with the aero disadvantage of the gt shape it would get killed at le mans. Also let's not forget the fuel economy impact, the gt shaped car would take much more fuel to match the LMP performance levels.

Top speeds at Fuji were comparable to lmp1. ~300kmh

[Maelochs]

Close to LMP1---pretty close. Now let's see them run six hours within ACO fuel limits and make that speed.

Sort of like the 1400-bhp BMW turbo-4 qualifying engines in F1 years ago---maybe they run a couple laps and blow up, maybe only one, but if they lasted a lap it was a really fast lap.

Most endurance races require ... endurance.

Those are some very fast cars, no doubt, with huge power, but they are tools for a different job. A hammer isn't better than a screwdriver or a wrench, it is just better as a hammer.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Close to LMP1---pretty close. Now let's see them run six hours within ACO fuel limits and make that speed.

Sort of like the 1400-bhp BMW turbo-4 qualifying engines in F1 years ago---maybe they run a couple laps and blow up, maybe only one, but if they lasted a lap it was a really fast lap.

Most endurance races require ... endurance.

Those are some very fast cars, no doubt, with huge power, but they are tools for a different job. A hammer isn't better than a screwdriver or a wrench, it is just better as a hammer.

These cars race The 1000 KM of Suzuka every year. This is a normal WEC race.

[TF110]

No one is saying theyre lmp's. But they run times about equal to privateer lmp1's while being heavier and less hybrid. They race 1000km of Suzuka just fine too, so theyre not too bad on reliability.

Edit- hondafan said the same thing