[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[deggis]

Vasselon said in some (earlier) interview that a competitor is obviously an important thing to have, but that Porsche's pull out wouldn't instantly end their program. Currently it is greenlighted through 2019. Even the boardroom must see how stupid it would be to end the program without even attempting to grab a meaningless win in 2018.

Perhaps the real question is what now happens to the 2020 regs and what is Peugeot's move, if they were going to make one at all.

[canaglia]

2017 TS050 is a hugely updated car compared to 2016. Basically almost the same evolution between 2014 919 and 2015 model.
To me, TMG will stick to WEC up to 2018 at least.
For some reason they won't manage to win LM 2018 however.

[insane014]

Toyota would be insane to pull out. If they don't rack up LM wins like 5 times in a row right now when will they ever? History will always remember them as winners, not as winners that didn't have any competition. It worked out for Audi.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by canaglia

2017 TS050 is a hugely updated car compared to 2016. Basically almost the same evolution between 2014 919 and 2015 model.
To me, TMG will stick to WEC up to 2018 at least.
For some reason they won't manage to win LM 2018 however.

Well the decision rides on Toyota now because if they do stay then it will have trickle down effect on the LMP1 non hybrid car model sales I'm sure. Maybe Toyota will scale down? 1 car for full WEC and 2 for Le Mans only perhaps?

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by deggis

Vasselon said in some (earlier) interview that a competitor is obviously an important thing to have, but that Porsche's pull out wouldn't instantly end their program. Currently it is greenlighted through 2019. Even the boardroom must see how stupid it would be to end the program without even attempting to grab a meaningless win in 2018.

The Le Mans history book is full of "meaningless" wins, including several from Audi & Porsche, people should stop acting like it would be the first time that a manufacturer races against no equal opposition at Le Mans...it has happened a lot of times.

It's quite interesting, Audi has always (rightfully) been lauded for sticking with LMP when no one else would and once somebody else does it it's being looked down upon. If there's one manufacturer who has earned an "easy win" the hard way it's Toyota, they have more than paid their dues in more than three decades of trying.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Acid09

The Le Mans history book is full of "meaningless" wins, including several from Audi & Porsche, people should stop acting like it would be the first time that a manufacturer races against no equal opposition at Le Mans...it has happened a lot of times.

It's quite interesting, Audi has always (rightfully) been lauded for sticking with LMP when no one else would and once somebody else does it it's being looked down upon. If there's one manufacturer who has earned an "easy win" the hard way it's Toyota, they have more than paid their dues in more than three decades of trying.

The difference is that whilst a few Audi and Porsche wins were meaningless, there are also some very very meaningful and well fought wons. But Toyota won't have that, and that's kinda sad IMO. I know it isn't a case of deserving a win or it being their turn, but it would be disappointing for the only Toyota win to be when everyone else has left.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The difference is that whilst a few Audi and Porsche wins were meaningless, there are also some very very meaningful and well fought wons. But Toyota won't have that, and that's kinda sad IMO. I know it isn't a case of deserving a win or it being their turn, but it would be disappointing for the only Toyota win to be when everyone else has left.

To be fair, Audi's first win in 2000 was rather meaningless as well, beating Pescarolo - as the best non-Audi in 4th - by 24 laps, which even back then wasn't what anyone would seriously consider "stiff oppossition".

[TF110]

How can you say that a Toyota win with 'no competition' will be meaningless? Was Porsche's win this year meaningless when they only just beat an lmp2 by a lap? They had no competition when the third Toyota shred itself to pieces. Who knows how fast the privateer cars will be. Even lowly Kolles was capable of doing low-mid 3:20's and if they stayed trouble free would have won. Even without two manufacturers, there's still a race. And sometimes you have 3 or more manufacturers and there is no race up front. A win is a win, and that's what will be talked about for years, not who they did or didn't beat.

[carbsmith]

Yeah Audi beat a whole lot of nothing until ~2008 and never beat Porsche outside of a development year, for example.

[chernaudi]

Same arguments can apply to Porsche. Ferrari got trounced in '70 and '71 because of Ferrari trying to do F1 and sportscars at the same time--to the detriment of both programs. Porsche only had to face unreliable Renaults in '76 and '77. Rondeau in '81 and '82. Lancia's half-baked programs in '83-85.

Fact is that history will show that the multi-factory barn burners were exceptions rather than the rule.

[J Jay]

We're getting all the old quotes today, so let me add one more:

You can only beat what's put in front of you.

I'm sure almost everybody - TMG included - would prefer to win against a packed field of competitive factory rivals if they had the choice, but they don't, and it's imperative verb that matters first and foremost. If I were in charge I'd ditch the WEC now and put four cars into next year's LM and the one after (the ACO aren't going to turn down a LM-only effort at this point) and get those victories.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Yeah Audi beat a whole lot of nothing until ~2008 and never beat Porsche outside of a development year, for example.

And that's why nobody really talks about the Audi 2000-2006 years, compared with the 2008 onwards.

Porsche didn't beat an LMP2 to the win this year. They beat 3 Toyotas. They finished whilst Toyotas didn't, and that's possibly the most Le Mans like win for decades. They fixed the car quicker, they coped with the race better and they got the reward. It isn't all about speed, it's about the whole package.

Whilst Toyotas win against ByKolles would not be meaningless, it is amusing that people have said for years that Audi's 2000-2006 wins were pointless and meaningless...and now we've flipped it round and a "wins a win". Ok, lol.

[Adam43]

Basically all of the Le Mans wins are worthless as the teams the winner beat ended up being worse.

[chernaudi]

And the record book doesn't really care if you beat a small privateer team or beat 10 factory teams, a win's still a win.

Cadillac's wins at Daytona and Sebring this year were due to IMSA getting the BOP wrong, but it's still a win in the record books. Audi beat only private teams, a half-baked Cadillac effort and the Panoz effort that was only scantly supported by Ford in 2000. They beat Peugeot in 2007-2011 bar 2009. They beat Toyota and Porsche in 2014. Record books still show all of that as a win.

Porsche won LM in '87 mostly because of Jaguar reliability problems. Still shows as a win.

LM '75 had no factory teams and probably the strangest rules of any LM race (20 lap stints with 160 liter tanks on the prototypes--easy to do now and has been for years). Still shows JWA/Mirage as the winner.

Also doesn't matter if you win by a millimeter or a mile or 10 laps, a win's a win.

I think that I've made it pretty clear what I like and don't like about various classes and developments of racing over the past 30 years of my life. All I can say is that if you like it for what it is, good for you. You don't like it, that's OK too. Undecided? That's fine, too.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by J Jay

We're getting all the old quotes today, so let me add one more:



I'm sure almost everybody - TMG included - would prefer to win against a packed field of competitive factory rivals if they had the choice, but they don't, and it's imperative verb that matters first and foremost. If I were in charge I'd ditch the WEC now and put four cars into next year's LM and the one after (the ACO aren't going to turn down a LM-only effort at this point) and get those victories.

That's a big if. Toyota loves hybrids and owns that market. What better way to show you're the boss of hybrid than to continue and win the biggest race(s) involving hybrids? F1 maybe can claim they are hybrid but Unless you're Mercedes it doesn't look like that place is worthwhile. And Toyota don't seem to want to spend 300-400 million dollars again on something that their countrymen is having a hard time with.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

.... it is amusing that people have said for years that Audi's 2000-2006 wins were pointless and meaningless..

Have a lot of people actually said that? I've been here a long long time, and I don't remember that.....

[Akrapovic]

Every time Audis achievements were discussed after they announced the withdrawal last year? "They never had any competition" was said constantly. Even had to do some basic maths and point out that 2007-2016 is a longer time period than 2000-2006.

Was also said in a lot of other places too. But I'm actually seeing some usernames (not just here) actually saying a win is a win now. Times change quick eh. all completion is competition of course.

I do t think it's unreasonable to suggest that the 2016 win (had the car finished) would be worth significantly more than a theoretical 2018 win against an LMP2 grid. That I do find a bit sad. Especially for the 2016 incident now.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Have a lot of people actually said that? I've been here a long long time, and I don't remember that.....

Hardcore sports car racing fans may not but I remember the rest of the racing world looking at LMP900/LMP1 as pretty pointless exercises of Audi running laps around everyone else.

2006 raised a bit of interest due to the TDI but even that "race" was rather uninspiring. I remember that in these years, most of the attention was actually on GT1.

Interestingly enough, even with more than one factory present, only few Le Mans editions in the past decade were really close races. Peugeot was in no place to attack in 2007, Audi was helpless in 2009. 2008 and 2010 were interesting and dramatic mostly due to Peugeot's huge screw-ups, the one standout race of the Diesel-era was definitely 2011, probably one of the best Le Mans races of all time.

[chernaudi]

And even those races like 2011 are the exception rather than the rule. Usually LM is on average won by a lap or two, even if the race was close during most of the event.

IMO, Toyota might not have the best of competition, but as I mentioned, those eras are relatively short lived and come by every so often. That whole deal is kinda sad, but there's not much we can do about it. It's a cycle and it is what it is for the most part.

And IMO, I'd argue that Toyota to a degree would be stupid or insane to not run LM next year. Easy win or not, it still counts in the record books, and in a few years, a lot of people won't really care a whole lot aside from anoraks like you or I, and even then I don't think I'd care too much. I don't even care that a lot of Porsche's wins are "meaningless". They are what they are, and we can't change that, or what the record book says.

Not to mention until the Audi era ushered in cars that were almost impossible to kill, no one was guaranteed a win at Le Mans. Even in the Audi era, no one team was guaranteed a win over the other. It still takes staying out of trouble and a bit of luck.

[Aysedasi]

I stand corrected then..... . But then again, I never said it. (AFAIK). And I still subscribe to the view that there have been many out of the 85 races that might have been considered to have limited worth had there been countless internet analysts around to have debated them at the time. Progress eh?


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[Adam43]

However, one thing that is good about the current discussion that is happening simultaneously in several threads is that if/when Porsche do announce their withdrawal we won't have to go through this again.

[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by Adam43

However, one thing that is good about the current discussion that is happening simultaneously in several threads is that if/when Porsche do announce their withdrawal we won't have to go through this again.

Don't worry, we will anyway.

[Starfish Primer]

Some time ago in MWM they said that Toyota could offer the SuperGT engine to LMP1 privateers.

[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

Some time ago in MWM they said that Toyota could offer the SuperGT engine to LMP1 privateers.

What they meant was, when SARD finally gets their act together to make their LM return, they can use their GT500 engine.

[chernaudi]

Thought this article is mostly about Porsche, it hints that TMG might be changing plans based on Porsche's announcement:

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/p...end-of-season/