[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[Adam43]

The suggestion in the Racecar Engineering article is that someone left one team to go and work for the other.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Adam43

The suggestion in the Racecar Engineering article is that someone left one team to go and work for the other.

I missed that part at the bottom on the article. So yeah, that is a clear way for ideas to migrate.

After my post above, I did a quick scan of the rules and... I think that other than the Audi step design, I can see how it is all technically legal. And maybe with closer inspection of the dimensions of the Audi design, maybe it is also legal. As the article says the FIA/ACO has so far said "Ok".

It will be interesting to see if there is any drama around these designs.

Richard

[Adam43]

What is the procedure at Test Day? I think there is some scrutineering. Is it full scrutineering? I guess if you turn up with something dodgy you can still run. Is there a quiet word before Scrutineering proper?

I think the Nissan was stopped going out, but that was mirrors and could be more safety than performance.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Adam43

What is the procedure at Test Day? I think there is some scrutineering. Is it full scrutineering? I guess if you turn up with something dodgy you can still run. Is there a quiet word before Scrutineering proper?

I think the Nissan was stopped going out, but that was mirrors and could be more safety than performance.

I don't know, but I don't think it is full scrutineering???? I suspect that small technical issues might get by, but with a quiet whisper of "that might be an issue on full scrutineering." And safety issues would be called out immediately (ala Nissan as you say). Doesn't something similar happen with F1 testing? Safety compliance, but other things are more up in the air? Even this RE article shows an example of the bodywork extending beyond the rear wing which is a no-no, but clearly also most likely a fitment issue and not a safety one, so they can run as is. I think Porsche had similar issues last year with flex of rear bodywork that existed during test day, but was resolved prior to race day?

Richard

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I would still be shocked if this is happening given both Audi and Porsche want to beat each other so why give either a leg up. But who knows. The only scenario I can come up with that involves sharing is if someone within VAG that is above both Audi and Porsche comes into knowledge of a loophole that they might share that info with both teams. But I suspect any trick discovered by either team is not shared directly with the other.

Richard

Im wondering if it happens at this level. Theres a dsc interview with Giorgio Sanna, head of Lamborghini motorsport, and he somewhat describes the sharing of information on things like strategy between the brands. It probably doesnt go that deep, but itd be cool to see if it did.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by TF110

Im wondering if it happens at this level. Theres a dsc interview with Giorgio Sanna, head of Lamborghini motorsport, and he somewhat describes the sharing of information on things like strategy between the brands. It probably doesnt go that deep, but itd be cool to see if it did.

I think what he meant is overall motorsport strategy.

[Spyderman]

I love this picture. Also - Interesting to see that front wing so high. Looks like they are really trying to force that air down below the car to increase aerodynamic grip.

[Spyderman]

Apparently Porsche are doing a shakedown today on the Bugatti circuit.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I love this picture. Also - Interesting to see that front wing so high. Looks like they are really trying to force that air down below the car to increase aerodynamic grip.

That black-and-white livery on the #18 looks really good, much better at least than the usual livery.

[Akrapovic]

From that RCE article, I can't see how either the Audi or Porsche endplates are legal. They may conform to a couple of the regulations if you look at them just the right way, but they don't to others.

And this argument of "It's not an endplate, it's bodywork" is like the old double diffuser discussion in F1 of "Well, what exactly is a hole?"

Whilst neither are quite the level of Toyotas ridiculously "rotating! not bending!" rear wing, hopefully they are both removed before race day.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

From that RCE article, I can't see how either the Audi or Porsche endplates are legal. They may conform to a couple of the regulations if you look at them just the right way, but they don't to others.

And this argument of "It's not an endplate, it's bodywork" is like the old double diffuser discussion in F1 of "Well, what exactly is a hole?"

Whilst neither are quite the level of Toyotas ridiculously "rotating! not bending!" rear wing, hopefully they are both removed before race day.

I guess that it ultimately boils down to what the scrutineers will think about the designs. The argument that the extensions upstream of the actual rear wing end plates are not part of the end plates per se because they are not attached to the end plates and actually part of the bodywork seems fine from my perspective. Both designs seems to be okay in that respect.

Porsche's design also appears to be fine with respect to the provisions of Article 3.6.2 d) governing the specifications of the rear wing end plates. I struggle however a bit to understand how Audi's design literally complies with that very same provision:

It could be that Audi would argue that the part of the rear wing end plate that "connects" to the extension (i.e. the leading "edge" of the actual end plate) should not be regarded as an edge pursuant to Article 3.6.2 d) as it is not exposed to the airflow, and therefore does not need to be rounded.

Interestingly, it is worth reminding that Toyota were using similar extensions back in 2012 and 2013 on the TS030. These extensions were clearly bent outward forward of the rear wing end plates as this is apparent on the following pictures (at LM 2012 and pre-LM 2013 at least):

LM 2012:


Paul Ricard Launch 2013:


LM 2013:


At LM 2013, the extensions do not appear to be visibly bent or curved however.

In that respect, these are clear precedents where the ACO-FIA have evidently allowed or tolerated such rear wing end plate extensions.

Interestingly, the current provision governing the rear wing end plate specifications were already there in the 2012 Regulations (namely in Art. 3.6.3 c) at the time). This particular provision has not been substantially revised since 2012.

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Hartley does not think 3:15 or 3:16 will be achieved : http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/jou...et-pedro-lamy/

that's quite weird, since they were about 6 seconds quicker at spa. that should mean at least 6 seconds at le mans as well, which would mean easy 3:15.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by sssssssss

that's quite weird, since they were about 6 seconds quicker at spa. that should mean at least 6 seconds at le mans as well, which would mean easy 3:15.

Uh. No. It doesn't.

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Uh. No. It doesn't.

so be it, if you say so.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Uh. No. It doesn't.

Come on MoMedic9019. You're an established member on this forum.

[carbon_titanium]

it will be extremely hard to achieve a 3.16 mainly because of traffic! it will be basically impossible to run a clean lap... if you remember, in 2013 duval set the pole time of 3.22 during his first lap just a pair of minutes after the green light of Q2 almost without any other car in the track.
Anyway I guess that 3.18 wall will fall for good

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I think what he meant is overall motorsport strategy.

It seems to go a little deeper than that. You can go back to the Audi R8 and Bentley Speed 8 programs and see some parallels to what he said in the interview. But I agree theres not a direct sharing of information where each team gets the same updates.

[Spyderman]

I read somewhere that the Porsche team left the circuit after yesterdays mini-test on the Bugatti circuit and have gone home (I presume) for a "little rest".

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Uh. No. It doesn't.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...a-thought.html

This article suggest that the LMP2 and GTE were slower in the area of 5 seconds in the test day compared to last years pole times, but LMP1 was quicker in the same conditions. This suggests a 5 second jump in times from last year.

Do you have any reason why it would not? I'm interested in hearing alternative arguments. These hybrid systems are complicated so I'm guessing some feel they won't give the same boost at Le Mans as they did elsewhere.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...a-thought.html

This article suggest that the LMP2 and GTE were slower in the area of 5 seconds in the test day compared to last years pole times, but LMP1 was quicker in the same conditions. This suggests a 5 second jump in times from last year.

Do you have any reason why it would not? I'm interested in hearing alternative arguments. These hybrid systems are complicated so I'm guessing some feel they won't give the same boost at Le Mans as they did elsewhere.

Well....I'll give it a go:
Whilst it is certainly true that the LMP2's and GT-Pro's were 5 seconds off the pace from last year, the non-Hybrid LMP1's (Rebellion) did very similar times. Could the fact that the Hybrid LMP1's be far better at dealing with the wet weather conditions due to their temporary 4 wheel drive be the reason why they did not seem to be as affected by the conditions?

To be honest, I don't have any idea what the times will be during qualifying, but I am having a hard time trying to understand just where (what sectors) another 5 seconds are going to come from.
If I had to guess, I would say 3:17.XX would be what makes the most sense to me . I could be (and most probably am) way off.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Well....I'll give it a go:
Whilst it is certainly true that the LMP2's and GT-Pro's were 5 seconds off the pace from last year, the non-Hybrid LMP1's (Rebellion) did very similar times. Could the fact that the Hybrid LMP1's be far better at dealing with the wet weather conditions due to their temporary 4 wheel drive be the reason why they did not seem to be as affected by the conditions?

That is perhaps a good explanation, especially since the P1s have the Michelin Slicktermediate tyres. However at Silverstone and Spa, the cars were significantly faster in similar conditions as they were previously as well, so I'm not sure it was based on conditions!

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...a-thought.html

This article suggest that the LMP2 and GTE were slower in the area of 5 seconds in the test day compared to last years pole times, but LMP1 was quicker in the same conditions. This suggests a 5 second jump in times from last year.

Do you have any reason why it would not? I'm interested in hearing alternative arguments. These hybrid systems are complicated so I'm guessing some feel they won't give the same boost at Le Mans as they did elsewhere.

Well for one even though Spa is similar to Le Mans, it does have a much higher proportion of faster corners (basically every corner between Bruxelles and the bus stop) where a lot of the improvement in lap time was made. La Sarthe only has the Porsche curves and the Esses in this regard. And out of those corners, there is more opportunity to use the hybrid energy to increase acceleration. With so much of Le Mans being straights and with the circuit being so long the hybrid energy runs out quicker relatively speaking. So while there will be a marked improvement we can't yet say that X seconds at Spa/Silverstone = X seconds at Le Mans.

However with the changes to the track improving lap times even further it might still be the case!

[Spyderman]

A 919 Pink Pig

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

A 919 Pink Pig

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

To be honest, I don't have any idea what the times will be during qualifying, but I am having a hard time trying to understand just where (what sectors) another 5 seconds are going to come from.
If I had to guess, I would say 3:17.XX would be what makes the most sense to me . I could be (and most probably am) way off.

Looking at the laptime and seeing how Porsche was getting it done last year, I expect to see big improvement in sector 2. Those 1:16's are going to tumble because the Porsche's ran 1:16's last year. We know they have upped the power and capacity for this year. General improvements in 1 and 3 with the drivers just pushing a bit harder and softer tires.