Peugeot 908 discussion

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I wonder if the factory drivers have done any back to back testing with the old grandfathered car and the new 908

Please excuse me for asking ...... but , how old are you please ?

This might explain some issues too .

[chernaudi]

At least I dropped the discussion about the accident and moved on to a possible grounds for comparison between the old and new 908s, as Oreca will have a factory supported grandfathered old car for the ILMC and LM while the factory will have newer cars.

Of course, what's being referred to is an article that was posted in the Oreca thread here: http://www.autohebdo.fr/endurance/le...r-la-908-oreca

Of course, these are only one driver's impressions. Only Peugeot and Oreca really know what the times and such are, especially since the Oreca test was held a few days before the aborted factory Peugeot test. And aside from that and the on paper specs, we don't have much. Only at Sebring in the race will we get any definitive conclusions, and unless anyone wants to discuss this, I'll leave it at that.

And I don't know if this has been discussed at length, but does anyone think that there may be a chance that Oreca before year's end can get a new 908? I know that it's early to speculate on that, but Peugeot was willing as early as '08 with the old 908 to offer it up to a private team, and Oreca did well with a "second hand" 908 last year, second had, of course, perhaps not being the right phrase as though it was an old car, it was fully updated to be on par with the factory machinery.

Audi have recently been aiming to have importer backed semi-works teams in the ALMS and LMS (and possibly the ILMC and LM) in the coming years, and could Peugeot do the same with the new 908, as perhaps it's cheaper and simpler to run than the old car and that Peugeot might want an LMS team or another team in the ILMC?

I appogize in advance if this is too far out of the relm of reasonable speculation, but I'm interested in possibility of a customer car program for the new Pug, considering what Oreca did last year in the LMS.

[The Badger]

Oreca could have had a 2011 example , but not at the start fo the season , so they choose to run the 2010 chassis . What happens later on is anyones guess . But If Pug are writing off chassis like has been suggested .....

[chernaudi]

The written off cars might become an issue if they wreck more cars, but hopefully they won't, because otherwise, as far as is known, Peugeot have had a good test program as far as engine reliablity. If they can just get over the hump with the issues that caused these accidents, they'll at least be on par with Audi as far as being in good shape for the ILMC and Le Mans.

And getting back to the customer car deal, Oreca showed us that they could run the somewhat complex 908 competitively with the factory team if given the right equipment that's on par with the factory. I don't know if the new 908 is less complex than the old 908 (ie, the hydraulic system that probably took up some weight), but a skilled team like Oreca have shown that with factory support on a semi-works basis, that they're a formidiable ally to have.

And I do hope that Audi and Peugeot will have ALMS and LMS programs for Audi and LMS programs for Peugeot and ILMC/LM programs for both in the future.

*Warning: venturing off into mild speculation*

The only issue I can see for both Audi and Peugeot is the rules changes proposed for 2014, which we only have a broad proposal and, this being the ACO, is subject to constant change. Unless there is a grandfather clause for this generation of cars or the engine/chassis regs are broadly based on the current issue, I can't see Audi or Peugeot selling cars off to more than one or two teams, which probably is the likely scinerio anyways: A 1-2 car team for the regional series that they're intrested in, and maybe a private 1-2 car team for the ILMC. Logistically, I don't think that such moves may pay off like it used to for Porsche in years gone by in the protoype category, and with rules changes possible for 2014, Audi or Peugeot my not want to make an investment larger than that, with a 1-2 car team for the regional series and a private team for the ILMC.

I wonder if the Mods might object to there being a thread for possible future customer car speculation and discussion about this very deal involving Audi, Peugeot, Aston Martin, and other current or future factory tie-ins?

However, specific to Peugeot, Oreca has to be candidate numero uno for a new semi works 908 program.

[92scotland]

Chernaudi, please stop. The limited time I get to read this forum, I don't want to be reading huge long winded posts about the same nonsense from the previous long post. It's coming to the point where i'm just scrolling straight past said posts. So I think it's no longer a question of if you'll get banned, I think it a question of when.

[chernaudi]

I dropped the discussion about the accident. If anyone want's to read more about that, visit Mike's site as he's written an article about it.

I'm asking about the possiblitly of there being a customer car program, like Peugeot did with Oreca last year. I'm also voicing an opinion or thought that we shouldn't expect there to be this big rush to buy R18's or 908's or whatever factory developed LMP1s are out there now or soon, because depending on the ACO, the cars may be banished to obsolscence by '14. However, do expect customer cars to be in the relm of possibility, but few buyers right now.

[Fogelhund]

A shame you can't put someone on ignore here. If there ever was a candidate...

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

A shame you can't put someone on ignore here. If there ever was a candidate...

You can, but the function is somewhat buried in the user CP.

http://tentenths.com/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist


On-topic somewhat... random thought about the 908: I can't wait to hear the first onboards from it and compare the noise to the old V12. During 2010 that one actually started to sound a bit more like an engine and less like a vacuum cleaner.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I can't see Audi or Peugeot selling cars off to more than one or two teams.

Peugeot and Audi do not sell their car to privateers. Pescarolo and Oreca rented the old 908, but the cars stayed property of Peugeot.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

You can, but the function is somewhat buried in the user CP.

http://tentenths.com/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist


On-topic somewhat... random thought about the 908: I can't wait to hear the first onboards from it and compare the noise to the old V12. During 2010 that one actually started to sound a bit more like an engine and less like a vacuum cleaner.

I love that deep brutal rumbling from the V12!.
The V8 should keep that sound as it is almost the cylinder displacement.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Peugeot and Audi do not sell their car to privateers. Pescarolo and Oreca rented the old 908, but the cars stayed property of Peugeot.

Which was the whole problem with the Pescarolo Peugeot 908, as Pescarolo got a huge bill for the damage from Treluyer accident.

[chernaudi]

As far as engine noise goes, I don't know. The R18 was described as being noticeably quieter than the R15 at the Sebring test.

However, the R18, having a V6, has more capacity per cylinder, and obvoulsy the new cars will have new filters, so that should mean less back pressure and more exhaust flow.

And RPM has a lot to do with it, too (more revs=more noise) and the fact that these engines use turbochargers. However, the onboards pick up a lot more noise than the trackside cameras do.

[chernaudi]

And since we're talking engines--and one may be on display at Geneva--I'd like to hear thoughts on the new Pug V8, since the exhaust note was mentioned.

Since the new engine is a V8 diesel, I wonder if that influenced the crank arragement. Being a low-revving diesel, could Peugeot have gone with a crossplane crank or will they run a flatplane crank. Granted, the exhaust note could tell all if we can hear it. However, the low revs, turbocharging and the particle filters in the exhaust will probably make it sound like a gas turbine like on the R10, R15 and early 908. And with no exhaust or onboards existing yet, we can only guess.

However, knowing that it's going to be a low revving V8, would there be an advantage to either crank arrangement, or knowing that it's a diesel, does it matter at this stage? It'll be interesting though as to what onboards might sound like at Spa and LM.

[Lola T70]

Originally Posted by CTD

I love that deep brutal rumbling from the V12!.
The V8 should keep that sound as it is almost the cylinder displacement.

Will the exhaust design have some influence on noise?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Lola T70

Will the exhaust design have some influence on noise?

Yes it should, but the only difference there is that the V8 isn't Sidepiped, but is rearward.
So hopefull more noise (but i'm not a exhaust expert )

[vyselegend]

Originally Posted by CTD

Which was the whole problem with the Pescarolo Peugeot 908, as Pescarolo got a huge bill for the damage from Treluyer accident.

Actually the real problem was that Henry took the risk to not insure the car, probably because they were planning to play it safe, as they had more a suport role than a real fighting role. It proved to be a big mistake, but hinsight's a wonderfull thing...

Makes me wonder how many teams run without insuring their cars, but that's off topic.

Originally Posted by CTD

Yes it should, but the only difference there is that the V8 isn't Sidepiped, but is rearward.
So hopefull more noise (but i'm not a exhaust expert )

From the (very low quality) short vid of the Monza 90X testing posted by a fan some month ago, it seemed to hear the same as the V12.
But some members will have the chance to confirm or infirm it in two weeks!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by vyselegend

From the (very low quality) short vid of the Monza 90X testing posted by a fan some month ago, it seemed to hear the same as the V12.

Do you have a link for this video? The only videos I find on youtube of Peugeot testing in Monza, are of the old 908.

[chernaudi]

It it sounds like the V12, it's probably got a flat crank. However, with the exhaust with the filters and turbos, that can play a big role in how the engine sounds.

The onboards we'll get when the 908 is racing will probably be a big tell tale sign. Besides, the Audi R8 engine was a 3.6 TT V8, and in it's later versions, was limited to a few hundred more RPM than the diesels might turn. Of course, the R8's engine used a flat crank, but it was designed to have a max redline of about 7000-7200 rpm in it's heyday, not the 5800-6000 that it would later use.

And the engine's external layout will be of interest, though by looking at the exhaust exits, it'll probably be fairly conventional.

[gwyllion]

As already pointed out earlier in this topic (see here), Gene said that the new V8 makes more noise than the old V12.

[vyselegend]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Do you have a link for this video? The only videos I find on youtube of Peugeot testing in Monza, are of the old 908.

I was going to search for it, but it seems youtube is censored in China, so I can't reach it ATM. Anyway I must admit there was no proof the car on the vid was the new car, as it was way too blurry to catch the silhouette of the car roaring past the fan. Just the guy had labeled his vid "90X testing at Monza" or something like that.

EDIT: Removed link to EI.Gwyllion was faster to find it back.

[JAG]

In general if you downsize an engine do you not rev it more to gain back lost power?

New WRC's have 1.6T's rather than 2.0T's and rev notably higher with far more gear changes needed to keep them in the ideal power band.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by JAG

In general if you downsize an engine do you not rev it more to gain back lost power?

You really can't push a diesel past a certain number of revs, so power gains must be done through other means. That's what the failed titanium conrods were for.

[chernaudi]

Audi claimed that their 5.5 V12 and V10 units had an absolute do-not-exceed rev limit of about 5500 rpm. I don't think that anything would've broken, but diesels don't really make power above that, which makes those extra revs redundant.

Once you start to exceed the capabilities through RPM (which on gasoline engines is heavily dictated by the air restrictors, and on the diesels that's dictated by the nature of the beast and the air restrictors), you have to find power elsewhere, like lighter weight parts to reduce unneeded mass or friction, special racing oils,etc.

Which is why the Pug V8 diesel, for instance, may have a flat crank--it's lighter and can be spun up faster than most crossplane cranks, though with 550 or so bhp and about 600+ ft/lbs of torque, spinning anything up shouldn't be an issue.

With an air restrictor formula, you can't just rev the engines to make more power (volume of air in the combustion mixture), hence the lightweight parts, special lubricants, anything to reduce unneeded masses or friction and boost effiency across the board--fuel mileage and power.

[TF110]

So in the F1 world they're 'blowing' their diffusers, would such a practice be any beneficial in LeMans cars? seeing as how they have rear exhausts would this be in the realm of possibility?

[Pandamasque]

I haven't been able to find any videos of 2011 car testing. The most recent testing vid from Monza is shot in October and that's the old car definitely. It has side exhaust and 2010 aero.

Originally Posted by TF110

So in the F1 world they're 'blowing' their diffusers, would such a practice be any beneficial in LeMans cars? seeing as how they have rear exhausts would this be in the realm of possibility?

I don't see why not. But they don't do that yet, it seems.

This is a screenshot from this video

PS: a strange place to put access panels, don't you think?