Sportscar/GT (and Le Mans) Rumours and Repetition

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Wow, look how green Sonoma is right now!

What a difference a little rain makes!

It's usually green in the winter and turns brown towards the end of spring, right?

[ss_collins]

No matter what one may think of BOP, GT3 feels more honest in its approach to racing.

Oh no no no...

really? GT3 and BoP make a mockery of racing.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Originally Posted by BullMan

It's usually green in the winter and turns brown towards the end of spring, right?

Yup same as laguna seca

[Mt. Lynx]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Oh no no no...

really? GT3 and BoP make a mockery of racing.

In comparison with GTE, of course.
A once a season BOP in GT3 vs. waivers and continous BOP throughout the season in GTE.

And FWIW, BOP is used in almost all motorsport, either by having a very tight set of rules - wich IMO makes for dull racing, and could almost br considered as one-make racing - like F1, DTM or SuperGT (and can still mean that a single constructor can run away with the season), or by waivers of parts (mostly GTE), or restrictions in performance.

To me, the last version feels the most honest. After all, the organizers want to put on a show, and in our case, that means racing. No matter how artificial the racing is, racing is better than car trains and/or runaways.

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by Mt. Lynx

To me, the last version feels the most honest. After all, the organizers want to put on a show, and in our case, that means racing. No matter how artificial the racing is, racing is better than car trains and/or runaways.

There is nothing honest about GTE or GT3. It's all about arbitrary BoP.

[Mt. Lynx]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

There is nothing honest about GTE or GT3. It's all about arbitrary BoP.

Can you point to any racing series that is not one-make (or has rules so tight that it basically is one-make, like F1, DTM or SuperGT), that does not utilize BOP?

[Pontlieue]

Originally Posted by Mt. Lynx

Can you point to any racing series that is not one-make (or has rules so tight that it basically is one-make, like F1, DTM or SuperGT), that does not utilize BOP?

Yeah, F1 is so basically one-make that cars have speed differences of up to four seconds.

LMP2 doesn't use BoP either (outside TUSC), at least for chassis, and currently allows for a great variety of cars.

LMP1 is debatable, but I think of the EoT more like a more elaborate version of the turbo/NA equivalence rules that series like F1 had for many years.

GT racing is different though, as they're based on road cars, so it's more difficult to imagine how a BoP-less version of GT racing would work. However I agree that GT3, unlike GTE, is at least honest about it.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by Pontlieue

Yeah, F1 is so basically one-make that cars have speed differences of up to four seconds.

LMP2 doesn't use BoP either (outside TUSC), at least for chassis, and currently allows for a great variety of cars.

LMP1 is debatable, but I think of the EoT more like a more elaborate version of the turbo/NA equivalence rules that series like F1 had for many years.

GT racing is different though, as they're based on road cars, so it's more difficult to imagine how a BoP-less version of GT racing would work. However I agree that GT3, unlike GTE, is at least honest about it.

It would work like it did before the 21st century. One car would blow everyone else out of the water and everyone else wouldn't bother showing up after a time.

[carbsmith]

GT3 is only set up the way it is because it was originally meant to match up existing cars built for single make series that never had anything like the same rules to start with. Otherwise the reason an endurance race used to have at least 3 or 3 GT classes was so that cars of different suitability levels could be grouped together where they'd be competitive instead of the inanity of a Viper racing a sports sedan or whatever.

GTE is fairly crippled. The class just barely works still but it's a house of cards. Even after ALMS started throwing in the challenge classes to fill fields there was still 16 GT2 cars at PLM, now there's only about half that because basically every single independent, privateer, or customer car has disappeared. It's a bit better in Europe but that's only because the factory Ferrari team has a seemingly infinite supply of rent-a-rides.

It's entirely possible that the next-gen rules obsolete the massive stock of 458s and the entire thing starts looking very thin.

[Mr Pink]

Originally Posted by Mt. Lynx

To me, the last version feels the most honest. After all, the organizers want to put on a show, and in our case, that means racing. No matter how artificial the racing is, racing is better than car trains and/or runaways.

That's your opinion. I'd honestly rather see the best car/team/drivers combo win, even if that means you end up with a dominant car.

The way I see it, the problem isn't the racing but the risk of loosing too many makes.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Mr Pink

That's your opinion. I'd honestly rather see the best car/team/drivers combo win, even if that means you end up with a dominant car.

The way I see it, the problem isn't the racing but the risk of loosing too many makes.

That's fine(ish) in a class with a healthy base of customer teams, in a class that's almost exclusively run by factory teams you risk killing off the whole class...

[gustavobamba]

Probably not the right Thread to put this wish but...

Let´s all pray that MAZDA will someday return to Le Mans... and with style like this :-)

http://www.gtplanet.net/mazda-lm55-v...pdate-for-gt6/

[pablocomics]

IMO Mazda wants to get back since ages but they don't have budget enough for a competitive entry

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Probably not the right Thread to put this wish but...

Let´s all pray that MAZDA will someday return to Le Mans... and with style like this :-)

http://www.gtplanet.net/mazda-lm55-v...pdate-for-gt6/

I've noticed that the height is slightly lower than the 787B. But still, it's sucks that Mazda won't be returning to Le Mans due to budget constraints.

[gustavobamba]

Is "BUDGET" what really matters?!?!?!?

Probably are other things too :-)

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Is "BUDGET" what really matters?!?!?!?

Yes, mostly, I suspect.

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Yes, mostly, I suspect.

Mostly, but there are some more things that bother me...

If they go to Le Mans what would they be "selling" to costumers????

Technology? Yes, "SKYACTIV Technology" Fair enough. Audi do the same with TDI tech.

Flagship model´s??? Mazda don´t have right now. Nissan name is P1 contender GT-R like the road model, marketing strategy :-) possible hybrid tech in the future road model!!!!????

Global sales leadership? NO… that´s for Toyota and VW Group.

IMHO, right now their target should be P2 costumers promoting SKYACTIV… but in the future with a possible Flagship car or an alliance with other manufacture´s who knows!!

[Speed-King]

What did Peugeot sell, though?

All of the things you mention applied to them as well - if not more so, having less of a sporty image than Mazda.

[deggis]

Last time they did "LMP" concept it didn't materialize into any racing plans and it was an actual physical car (Furai). Cheap attention grab tailored for gamers who worship the over-glorified 787B.

And wrong thread.

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

What did Peugeot sell, though?

All of the things you mention applied to them as well - if not more so, having less of a sporty image than Mazda.

Their Hybrid tech (Hybrid4) associated to Peugeot Sport road cars... i think :-)

Peugeot made a difficult choice, they need to fired allot of people and because of that they axe their LMP1 program.

I don´t know how they are right now (Finances) but i hope they will someday return to fight again :-)

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Mostly, but there are some more things that bother me...

If they go to Le Mans what would they be "selling" to costumers????

Technology? Yes, "SKYACTIV Technology" Fair enough. Audi do the same with TDI tech.

Flagship model´s??? Mazda don´t have right now. Nissan name is P1 contender GT-R like the road model, marketing strategy :-) possible hybrid tech in the future road model!!!!????

Global sales leadership? NO… that´s for Toyota and VW Group.

IMHO, right now their target should be P2 costumers promoting SKYACTIV… but in the future with a possible Flagship car or an alliance with other manufacture´s who knows!!

Originally Posted by Speed-King

What did Peugeot sell, though?

All of the things you mention applied to them as well - if not more so, having less of a sporty image than Mazda.

PSA want's to be a Global market leader, especially in China.
Peugeot pushed hard for the Chinese round to be held, to promote the brand in the Chinese market.
The same with the round in Brazil.
Peugeot too wanted to brand their Diesel technology. Let's not forget that VAG and PSA are building some of the best diesel car engines in the world. Other manufactures diesels are offsprings of PSA or VAG diesels, like Ford and Toyota.

So Peugeot had quite a lot to sell through their Le Mans projekt.

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Their Hybrid tech (Hybrid4) associated to Peugeot Sport road cars... i think :-)

Peugeot made a difficult choice, they need to fired allot of people and because of that they axe their LMP1 program.

I don´t know how they are right now (Finances) but i hope they will someday return to fight again :-)

Peugeot was forced by the government to axe the Le Mans program to get a bail-out from the government, so they wouldn't have to close one of their major factories in France. It was actually all political.

Finances in PSA is good since they sold a part to the Chinese. However the economy is bad, so I don't thing we should get our hopes up, just yet, however I do hope they return too, someday.

[gustavobamba]

Hello CTD, after my post i talk with my cousin (he lives in France) and he told me almost the same you did.. that was a political decision.

The Global Economy, specially in Europe is not to good indeed, let´s hope better year´s to come.

[jee]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

IMHO, right now their target should be P2 costumers promoting SKYACTIV…

Diesel are not allowed in LMP2 in any other series but TUSCC

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by jee

Diesel are not allowed in LMP2 in any other series but TUSCC

Exacly, they should focus on the American Market , not WEC. They are still developing their package.

[TF110]

If Toyota can run on $75 million a year and win, Mazda can. Their sales are through the roof. They make enough money, its like Toyota's board being conservative on the lmp project.