The Porsche vs Ferrari (or Badger vs brielga) thread

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Correct, but not by a huge amount.

That's the point! The difference is so small, it only will have positive global effects on the car balancing and mechanical grip.
991 will have even more grip than 458, but at the same time will have a better balancing in confront of the 997 RSR.
It's the right way to obtain a better compromise. It's not so hard to understand!

[dxk1]

Just wanted to say congratulations to AF Corsa guys for such a magnificent job of getting that car ready for the race after their earlier disaster and rebuild. Also, was very upset that the Matmut guys had to pull Armindo at the end there. It would have been great fun to see Armindo and Lamy dicing it out to the very end. I could just imagine the two of them shouldering their way through the Audi parade and scattering Audis and spectators all over the place as they gunned it out of the Ford Chicane and charged for the checkered flag. Ah, that would have been heavenly.

DK

[TF110]

Don't forget the new C7 Vette, which will undercut both of these cars by $50K and probably handle as well and be faster (more power). The C6.R GTE would have won this race IMO, but for mistakes (the big one with the left rear tire). I know this is a Ferrari and Porsche fan thread, but don't forget you have that new Viper and Vette around the corner. And you'll have that new F-Type Jag to contend with as well. And my bet is that Aston Martin will definitely improve their Vantage, they should have used the V12 (stupid rules).

[arakis]

Originally Posted by TF110

Don't forget the new C7 Vette, which will undercut both of these cars by $50K and probably handle as well and be faster (more power). The C6.R GTE would have won this race IMO, but for mistakes (the big one with the left rear tire). I know this is a Ferrari and Porsche fan thread, but don't forget you have that new Viper and Vette around the corner. And you'll have that new F-Type Jag to contend with as well. And my bet is that Aston Martin will definitely improve their Vantage, they should have used the V12 (stupid rules).

A: New Ferrari is around the corner as well.. 458 EVO or whatever it's supposed to be called, is scheduled in 2 years, 3 years in racing..
B: the c6R racing car is twice if not three times more expensive, which should tell you something...
C: No car in this class other then Ferrari and Porsche has ever even come close to being at the top pace, or even reliable enough without huge BoP, which should also tell you something...And many have tried, Spyker, Lotus, Corvette, BMW, Aston Martin...etc, etc...not one of them was competitive in the rulebook trim....

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Dario911

That's the point! The difference is so small, it only will have positive global effects on the car balancing and mechanical grip.
991 will have even more grip than 458, but at the same time will have a better balancing in confront of the 997 RSR.
It's the right way to obtain a better compromise. It's not so hard to understand!

This all remains to be seen, the 458 is a proven race car, that even against much heavier odds comes out on top, the 991 hasn't turned a single wheel on racetrack yet

[TF110]

lol@ huge BOP. What are you on about? What huge BOP does the Vette have? The C7 Vette I'm speaking of isn't even the ZR1 model- that will be faster than Ferrari's F12, even their Z06 will surely be as fast or faster than this EVO model 458 you're speaking of, because the current Z06 is right there with the 458. Vette dropped from GT1 and still won GTE(2). Don't discount them because they didn't win this year. Don't forget that Ferrari lost last year even though they ran wider than any other car. And one of the AM Porsche's from last year turned a lap within a second of the new 458s.

[911targa]

So, the official reason why IMSA has to put Pons in that car is

Anthony Pons – who was bound by the regulations to complete his minimum time at the wheel(paragraph9, sentence 2)

http://www.imsa-performance.com/en/n...ontenders.html

[Spyderman]

Still shows bad management of drivers time at the wheel.
If you have a slow driver in the line up, I would have opted to get his time at the wheel out of the way as soon as possible. You should never be in a position at the end of the race to be limited in options to your slow driver.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by TF110

lol@ huge BOP. What are you on about? What huge BOP does the Vette have? The C7 Vette I'm speaking of isn't even the ZR1 model- that will be faster than Ferrari's F12, even their Z06 will surely be as fast or faster than this EVO model 458 you're speaking of, because the current Z06 is right there with the 458. Vette dropped from GT1 and still won GTE(2). Don't discount them because they didn't win this year. Don't forget that Ferrari lost last year even though they ran wider than any other car. And one of the AM Porsche's from last year turned a lap within a second of the new 458s.

A: the Zo6 is slower the the 458
B: ZR1 is their hyped up model, which is slower on half the tracks it tested against the 458...
C: C7 isn't built yet
D: the C7 ZR1 is so far away, that Ferrari will probably have 2 models out before then
E: Ferrari lost last year, because it was a brand new car, and it broke down..
F: the Corvette last year had 47 waivers disregarding the rules, this year they had 47 waivers,BOP and faster refuel in the pits....And they still had their asses handed to them, by 3 Ferraris....

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by TF110

. And one of the AM Porsche's from last year turned a lap within a second of the new 458s.

IMSA RSR m.y. 2011 was within a second from Ferrari, this year too. I suppose with a m.y. 2011 Felbermayr Team may have had more chances to achieve a podium. While 2012 RSR has been slower due to its higher drag, 2011 car was quite as fast as most of the newer (Ferrari and Corvette). So, it has been a bad move to bring a so drag car in a fast track like Le Mans, for Porsche teams.

Corvette is always been fast, no BoP to help it in this years. Is not so correct to think well only about Ferrari...
Corvette would have won the race, if the wheel did not decide the opposite!

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Dario911

IMSA RSR m.y. 2011 was within a second from Ferrari, this year too. I suppose with a m.y. 2011 Felbermayr Team may have had more chances to achieve a podium. While 2012 RSR has been slower due to its higher drag, 2011 car was quite as fast as most of the newer (Ferrari and Corvette). So, it has been a bad move to bring a so drag car in a fast track like Le Mans, for Porsche teams.

Corvette is always been fast, no BoP to help it in this years. Is not so correct to think well only about Ferrari...
Corvette would have won the race, if the wheel did not decide the opposite!

Corvette wouldn't have won the race, as their car was doing 12-13lap stints while the ferrari was doing 14-15lap stints, on the same pace as them...It would have taken some time but at the end the Ferrari would have had 2-3 less pitstops

This year the corvettes had +0.4mm restrictors, and 75mm higher rear spoiler then prescribed by the rules...In other words, along with the 47waivers, it was BoPed as well.
Read the 2012 lates BoP http://private.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/vchp/430/$FILE/12-D-0006-LMGTE-BOP.pdf?Openelement

BTW I found a funny file on Fia's site, it's a waiver for the Aston Martins engine...They had to make major modifications to it (not allowed by the rules) as the road engine kept blowing up on them this was allowed only with the consent of other teams

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Dario911

IMSA RSR m.y. 2011 was within a second from Ferrari, this year too. I suppose with a m.y. 2011 Felbermayr Team may have had more chances to achieve a podium. While 2012 RSR has been slower due to its higher drag, 2011 car was quite as fast as most of the newer (Ferrari and Corvette). So, it has been a bad move to bring a so drag car in a fast track like Le Mans, for Porsche teams

As soon as I saw the new porker I knew they were gonna be slow at Le Mans...
I think Porsche was aiming for damage management this year, and their primary goal seems to be ALMS...They have everything they need to secure an excellent result this year in the ALMS...

[TF110]

Do you have fun digging up all the information about the 458's competition? How about you post some BOP favors for the Ferrari?

[arakis]

Originally Posted by TF110

Do you have fun digging up all the information about the 458's competition? How about you post some BOP favors for the Ferrari?

yeah I have fun finding out the actual facts behind the scenes.

As for Ferrari BoP +15kg

[tux]

But without BOP you would have Ferrari challenge rather than the variety and competition we have in GTE at the moment. The best car, team, drivers still won. Im not saying that BOP is the right thing to have but it keeps the costs down, and the competition close. As long as it doesn't get ridiculous with changes after every race for example like GT1 in ALMS 2006.

Nothing was going to beat the Ferrari this year, even with the same amount of fuel they still were able to do 1-2 laps longer than any other car without compromising the lap time.

[Articus]

Imagine the Ferrari without the 15kg ballast...

But thats just insane and a testament to the product that Ferrari builds..To be the quickest car and get the best fuel mileage with no aid from BOP but instead a weight penalty!

Alot was published to make it sound like this car was not heavily developed over the winter....but from the pace we have seen this year and the fuel mileage...What can compete with this thing?

[arakis]

Before BoP we had, 430 vs 997 and it was glorious....

15kg is almost nothing on 1245 kg cars, I remember the old days when Af corse 430 ran 50kg+ and were still the fastest (FIA GT)...

My theory on Ferraris speed:
A: they found something in the single restrictor, that coupled with DFI doesn't choke their engines as much.
B: They were holding back last year, while they sorted out the kinks, an to avoid being BoPed to oblivion.
C: the DFI engine is a huge advantage but it is in the spirit of the rules, if you want it on track, sell it first

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by arakis

Corvette wouldn't have won the race, as their car was doing 12-13lap stints while the ferrari was doing 14-15lap stints, on the same pace as them...It would have taken some time but at the end the Ferrari would have had 2-3 less pitstops

This year the corvettes had +0.4mm restrictors, and 75mm higher rear spoiler then prescribed by the rules...In other words, along with the 47waivers, it was BoPed as well.
Read the 2012 lates BoP http://private.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/vchp/430/$FILE/12-D-0006-LMGTE-BOP.pdf?Openelement

BTW I found a funny file on Fia's site, it's a waiver for the Aston Martins engine...They had to make major modifications to it (not allowed by the rules) as the road engine kept blowing up on them this was allowed only with the consent of other teams

According to your words, only Ferrari may have won the race... Sorry, but Corvette was capable to win, and has show clearly to be of the match. It has been always on the top positions, so it would have won, if the bad luck had not decided differently.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by arakis

Before BoP we had, 430 vs 997 and it was glorious....

15kg is almost nothing on 1245 kg cars, I remember the old days when Af corse 430 ran 50kg+ and were still the fastest (FIA GT)...

My theory on Ferraris speed:
A: they found something in the single restrictor, that coupled with DFI doesn't choke their engines as much.
B: They were holding back last year, while they sorted out the kinks, an to avoid being BoPed to oblivion.
C: the DFI engine is a huge advantage but it is in the spirit of the rules, if you want it on track, sell it first

My theory about Ferrari's speed:

is the newest car, so it's obvious it has a larger developement margin. Thanks to its DFI engine, is advantaged in fuel consumption. In other words, is the first GTE 2.0.
This will make difference until the launch of new rivals (Porsche and Corvette) with new DFI engines, new chassis and new aerodynamic. At the same way is now for Ferrari .

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Dario911

According to your words, only Ferrari may have won the race... Sorry, but Corvette was capable to win, and has show clearly to be of the match. It has been always on the top positions, so it would have won, if the bad luck had not decided differently.

coulda, shuda, woulda....bla bla bla....Ferrari dominated, deal with it
read my avatar, 1,2,4

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by arakis

read my avatar

Thats bull for a start , dont be so cocky , and you know your lucky as the 458 hasnt been so reliable , and you siad that yourself on several occassions .

Easy to be cockey with a new car .

[arakis]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Thats bull for a start , dont be so cocky , and you know your lucky as the 458 hasnt been so reliable , and you siad that yourself on several occassions .

Easy to be cockey with a new car .

Ah come on, after corvettes cockiness last year, they deserve to be brought down a few notches.

P.S. Interesting fact, my friend a porsche fan, said:
"that 74 vette, and the Aston are breaking down before the 12h mark" and that's exactly what happened. The Aston and the 74 were pushing way too hard way to early, they overdrive the machines.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Thats bull for a start , dont be so cocky , and you know your lucky as the 458 hasnt been so reliable , and you siad that yourself on several occassions .

Easy to be cockey with a new car .

The guy's very emotional... it's typical of donkey's lovers.
Let's he be happy, it maybe the last win in Le Mans of its beloved car... with arriving of the new RSR thing are going to change...

[MitchZ06]

Funny thing is even with the cars lapping at roughly the same pace and the Ferraris economy I still happen to remember the Corvette and Aston being in the top 3 (before the 3 wheels on my wagon and Aston problems). I think Arakis is just taking the win a little too far....

And for the Corvette ad, they have every right to brag about that win, the 74 car lead for a long time until it crashed and the 73 had to push to get into the lead. Shall I remind you of the classic Ferrari 'lol electronics' trait?

[TF110]

Ferrari has the newest car, surely. The other teams updated their cars with wider bodywork which Ferrari ran last year. Why didn't they win then? It's a race and things happen. Ferrari didn't dominate either. Your love for them shouldn't go that far to claim things like that. They weren't dominating until Corvette screwed up their tire change, and Aston ran off track.