[Tech Issue] Pirelli-The Tyre Story..

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Scott sorry you have not been feeling well mate, I hope you are recovering..

Recovering well, thanks. Good to be back.

[Scooter185]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Would they enter F1 if they were asked to do what Pirelli have been asked to do? i.e make tyres and take tyres to races that last for around 20 laps regardless of which circuit your at. Not as easy as it sounds.

With the new engine formula, maybe the tires we've seen the last two years wont be needed to "improve the show".

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Scooter185

With the new engine formula, maybe the tires we've seen the last two years wont be needed to "improve the show".

No one knows at the moment. It's not really something worth taking a gamble on. You could just as easily say, is it necessary to have DRS if the tyres are going to be like they are this season? I don't think that even Pirelli have much idea about what sort of tyres 2014 F1 needs, despite the 'secret' tests by Mercedes and Ferrari. However, it should be noted that a 2014 car with a defunct ERS is a car that's pretty much out of the race. Perhaps the unreliability factor will, once again, rear its ugly head? Is that better or worse than 'soft' tyres in this celebrity obsessed era?

[wolfhound]

Mercedes are to go before the FIA International Tribunal over the Pirelli testing affair. Ferrari are off the hook as their 2011 car is deemed not to have broken the rules. Nothing mentioned about other teams being offered the test.

http://adamcooperf1.com/2013/06/05/m...onal-tribunal/

What will happen at that is anybody's guess.

[Sodemo]

The tyres and DRS are both total red herrings. Once again, the "problem" is aero, and the way the cars are fundamentally designed around that one element of performance. Ive said it a thousand times, if you slash the aero dependency and return some more mechanical grip, better racing would ensue, you wouldn't need ridiculous tyres that fall apart or a cheat aero device.

[wolfhound]

Gary Anderson has some interesting things to say on the tyre front.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22762318

One also might note where some of the engineers that worked with him in the early years of Jordan and where they are now.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The tyres and DRS are both total red herrings. Once again, the "problem" is aero, and the way the cars are fundamentally designed around that one element of performance. Ive said it a thousand times, if you slash the aero dependency and return some more mechanical grip, better racing would ensue, you wouldn't need ridiculous tyres that fall apart or a cheat aero device.

But would you not also require F1 cars to have quicker lap times than other open wheel cars? This is where DRS does F1 a big favour. You can't just get rid of aero and then expect everyone to be OK with F1 cars having slower lap times than GP2 cars, or even Indycars.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Mercedes are to go before the FIA International Tribunal over the Pirelli testing affair. Ferrari are off the hook as their 2011 car is deemed not to have broken the rules.

hmmm......Mr Todt didn't waste any time.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

hmmm......Mr Todt didn't waste any time.

Neither did Mercedes...

[JeremySmith]

So Pirelli who the world knows can build tyres...Should provide tyres that they decide are worthy of the number one formula of racing..

Without the FIA the CIA or anybody else involed as they are talking out of their arse...

Build them and lets get on with it, one other thing do not listen to Bernie because he is going to prison sooner than you can say "Box Box"

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Neither did Mercedes...

?

I meant in the sense that he had another couple of weeks in which to decide if this whole thing should actually move on to the next stage.

[JeremySmith]

The clearest overview/opinion that I have heard on the tyre saga is from Joe Saward, in his latest sidepodcast..

[Mekola]

Let the tyre issue solve itself...

[Greem]

Mercedes certainly seem to be keeping their powder dry over who asked what of whom and what the answers were, don't they?

I'm beginning to suspect that Messrs Brawn, Lauda & Wolff have a briefcase full of documents that will... er... put the cat amongst the pigeons, so to speak.

Either that, or it all ends up being a simple "he said" "she said" case - but let's hope we don't end up with a ridiculously personal punitive outcome as with Spygate.

[Marbot]

Gary Anderson has this to say about the tyre saga:

"For one thing, it was not held until Wednesday of the week following the race. Why wait two days after a race to run a test at the same track with the same cars and the same drivers, who also have to be at Monaco in the middle of the week following the test, if you're not trying to keep it secret?"

"In my view, asking for the tyres to be changed because you can't make them work as well as someone else, is a bit like Ferrari or Lotus asking for Red Bull's aerodynamics to be changed because they are better than theirs."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22762318

[steve_r]

Was it not raining on the Monday & Tuesday, causing the test to be dealyed until Wednesday. So much has been written, but I seem to remember this from somewhere.

OK - get your bets in now for the penalty against Mercedes:
* Just a slap on the wrist
* Small fine
* Massive Fine
* Grid Penalties
* Disqualification from Monaco results
* Thrown out of this years Constructors Championship
* Thrown out of WDC and WCC
* Public Flogging

Perhaps a combination of two or more of the above?

[Marbot]

I wouldn't want them to be disqualified in any way, because that would give them more incentive to work on the 2014 car for the rest of the season.

A small, or even a massive fine, doesn't seem to have much effect on a team that will happily spend $100 million on a few tenths of a second in lap time.

Disqualification from the Monaco results was supposedly not going to happen, according to FIA press releases just after the GP. That would really be punishing just Rosberg. But if Rosberg, and Hamilton, knew that driving a 2013 car at the test was outside of the regulations, then it calls into question their integrity, as well. I can't believe that either driver didn't know about the regulation regarding what cars can and cannot be used during testing that's not specifically covered by pre-season testing.

Grid penalties could happen if it could be shown that Rosberg and Hamilton had full knowledge about testing regulations, but that would be hard to prove if both drivers plead ignorance to any testing regulations. But it's not something that the team could plead ignorance to, so grid penalties and\or constructors championship points deductions are still possible.

So that leaves either a slap on the wrist, or a public flogging.....hmmmm.

[jsTrecu]

Make them start from the back of the grid for the remaining of the season ...
I mean, the racing is already adulterated with this DRS thing and Pirelli's tyres. Why not fake this show a little more by putting the two fastest cars at the back and watch even more "free" passes ?
"Fans" would love the intensity of the comebacks and Mercedes would not suffer the embarrasement of falling back in the race anymore. Win win situation

Just kidding, as Marbot said excluding them from the results will only give them a reason to shift work on 2014. But in my opinion a fine is not right. I mean, every big team would hapilly pay anything if that buys them a free test, wouldn't they ? Money is to small of a punishement.
Let's wait and see...

[Mike E]

Can't quite get my head around the idea of a 'secret' F1 test at a grand prix track. Did nobody notice Mercedes pounding around Bareclona for 3 days?

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Can't quite get my head around the idea of a 'secret' F1 test at a grand prix track. Did nobody notice Mercedes pounding around Bareclona for 3 days?

Apparently they had security turning people away from the circuit and put up plastic sheeting around some of the fences / spectator areas to stop photographers / other people seeing the track. That's what I read on some other site.

[JeremySmith]

Gary Anderson's take on the tyre test...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22762318

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I wouldn't want them to be disqualified in any way, because that would give them more incentive to work on the 2014 car for the rest of the season.

A small, or even a massive fine, doesn't seem to have much effect on a team that will happily spend $100 million on a few tenths of a second in lap time.

Disqualification from the Monaco results was supposedly not going to happen, according to FIA press releases just after the GP. That would really be punishing just Rosberg. But if Rosberg, and Hamilton, knew that driving a 2013 car at the test was outside of the regulations, then it calls into question their integrity, as well. I can't believe that either driver didn't know about the regulation regarding what cars can and cannot be used during testing that's not specifically covered by pre-season testing.

Grid penalties could happen if it could be shown that Rosberg and Hamilton had full knowledge about testing regulations, but that would be hard to prove if both drivers plead ignorance to any testing regulations. But it's not something that the team could plead ignorance to, so grid penalties and\or constructors championship points deductions are still possible.

So that leaves either a slap on the wrist, or a public flogging.....hmmmm.

According to Autosport, these are the penalties open to the ISC :

"The ISC says available sanctions are listed in the order of severity: reprimand, fines, obligation to accomplish some work of public interest, time penalty, exclusion, suspension or disqualification."

I wouldn't be surprised if they're disqualified from this year's championship.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by davyboy

"The ISC says available sanctions are listed in the order of severity: reprimand, fines, obligation to accomplish some work of public interest, time penalty, exclusion, suspension or disqualification."

I wouldn't be surprised if they're disqualified from this year's championship.

Well that could quite feasibly see the withdraw of Benz then?

There's already that ongoing dispute with Bernie about how long they wanted to 'sign up' for so regardless of whether it's their fault, they won't like being penalised.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by davyboy

According to Autosport, these are the penalties open to the ISC :

"The ISC says available sanctions are listed in the order of severity: reprimand, fines, obligation to accomplish some work of public interest, time penalty, exclusion, suspension or disqualification."

Since no one was appealing against the race result, a time penalty, exclusion, suspension or disqualification must apply to something else.

"obligation to accomplish some work of public interest" Might apply better to individuals rather than large corporations who might be inclined to use it to their own ends.

"reprimand, fines," These would be just a joke, under the circumstances. It's entirely possible that Mercedes have gained a few tenths of a second of lap time as a result of the test. That's easily worth $50 million for this season and perhaps much more for next season.

Originally Posted by davyboy

I wouldn't be surprised if they're disqualified from this year's championship.

Ouch! But not impossible.

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Gary Anderson's take on the tyre test...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22762318

I think that's the 3rd time that article has been referenced.

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Apparently they had security turning people away from the circuit and put up plastic sheeting around some of the fences / spectator areas to stop photographers / other people seeing the track. That's what I read on some other site.

They have obviously nothing to hide, then?

Originally Posted by chunterer

Well that could quite feasibly see the withdraw of Benz then?

It could, and would a team like Mercedes use the threat of withdrawal to get a lesser punishment? Did it do the test in the hope that, however bad things might get, at least it's managed to get a better idea of what this seasons tyres are going to be like and a much better idea than anyone else about what the 2014 tyres are going to be like?

Originally Posted by chunterer

There's already that ongoing dispute with Bernie about how long they wanted to 'sign up' for so regardless of whether it's their fault, they won't like being penalised.

There was also a lot of bickering between them about the historicity of the Mercedes team, which would see them come in behind the likes of Williams' with regard to payments made for their value as a team to F1.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Marbot

It could, and would a team like Mercedes use the threat of withdrawal to get a lesser punishment? Did it do the test in the hope that, however bad things might get, at least it's managed to get a better idea of what this seasons tyres are going to be like and a much better idea than anyone else about what the 2014 tyres are going to be like?

on one hand their engine deals are signed and withdrawing from those would be legally devastating and through their recent hirings, Brackely already has the look of a place that has the ability to going back to be being a privateer.

on the other hand with these guys its always a game of chicken and with CVC attempting to float F1, losing a manu like Merc would hurt that so maybe the FIA see an opportunity to take back/leverage a greater level of commercial concessions that they once sold off so cheaply.

as of yet i am still unsure of what game is being played. cynically (or accurately) if its the same old game of control and power (under the guise of sporting equality) then there is no telling how draconian a punishment could get handed down.

makes for good TV though!