USCC (leave your axe outside)

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Dodge_Swinger

http://www.classicandperformancecar....w_than_go.html

Interesting column by Derek Bell, particularly regarding free laps during FCYs.

Very good article.

[LouisTheShark]

Originally Posted by Dodge_Swinger

Derek Bell "I mention this only to make the point that I understand the elation and the heartbreak associated with racing. I’ve seen it from all sides but there were times when I’ve led races by several laps having conserved the car, kept it off the kerbs, avoided contact with backmarkers and had perfect pit stops. I would have been mightily upset if that lead had been eroded each and every time there was a full course yellow incident on-track. And I’m not talking about major crashes here. To have cars that have lost time for whatever reason be allowed to claw back a lap every time there is a full-course yellow and wind up behind you with only a few laps to go is not racing – it’s showbusiness!"

He makes a valid point if one believes in the purity of sport. But that hasn't existed in sports car racing since the Can Am days. The fact is there is 1% of us that care and would like it to be that way and we participate on forums and in private discussions about how the sport should be more pure. But the 99% of the people don't know, don't care, or want to see dramatized finishes. Every sport, including stick and ball sports, have made changes over the last few decades to promote drama at the end. All the 1%s of these sports have complained about the contrived dramas, the drive to mediocrity, the removal of the soul of many of these sports. Yet despite all of that, the 99%s are what is making these sports successful.

While the FCY situation needs to change to provide more green flag racing, the fact is that strategies have changed. Lap down cars are getting some laps back not just because they happen to be in the right place at the right time, but because strategists on the teams adjust pit strategies to put their car in a favorable position. Some of this happened in the past, it was just not as obvious. Add to this the fact that cars are more reliable today then they were during Derek's days, and you end up with more cars being in the situations to gain a lap back due to a combination of FCYs and strategy calls.

FCYs are here to stay, they are not going away as the use of them instead of local corner workers are driven by risk assessment types (lawyers). Processes and procedures at tracks have changes to increase their use. So the only thing that can be done is trying to work on a way to reduce the time for a FCY. That is clearly the problem IMSA needs to solve.

The purity in sport has been long gone. Code 60 is something we will likely never see in the US due to the lawyer types not liking any idea where race control doesn't properly neutralize a field by placing cars behind a organizer controlled safety car. It also leaves other areas of concern of how to get safety equipment to a scene safely on portions of the track that may not be covered by Code 60. The rule books in the US have standing white flags for slow moving track vehicles, but ask any corner worker when was the last time they displayed a standing white flag for an EV at a professional race (ChampCar, IRL, IMSA, Grand Am, even SCCA Pro) while the race stayed green.

Racing in the US has become a battlefield between organizers and lawyers. It is all about trying to find a compromise that everyone can live with. Now add manufacturer interests, ie money, and the fact that the 99%s want drama, and one can just about leave the purity of the sport on the door step.

[Maelochs]

"Lap down cars are getting some laps back not just because they happen to be in the right place at the right time, but because strategists on the teams adjust pit strategies to put their car in a favorable position."

Strongly disagree. Lap-down cars are getting their laps back because or the completely random occurrence of FCYs, which teams cannot plan for (except in the last hour of a TUSC race, of course.) Teams are adjusting strategies in that maybe they will keep a car out for an extra lap hoping for a yellow, but otherwise ... it falls to them, whenever a carr goes off.

Even if they "adjust strategies," they aren't Earning a lap—they are Gifted a lap. And the rela issue is Unfairness.

At Sebring ESM did everything right and Ryan Dalziel and David Brabham turned in amazingly fast precise stints, making no errors, maneuvering through dense traffic, and maximizing every opportunity to gain a lead against vastly more powerful cars. They Earned a lead.

All the cars which got free laps earned Nothing. They did nothing exceptional except too still be running when some other car stopped.

You speak of other sports adapting to the TV environment and the sensibilities of modern fans; I challenge you to name one sport which gives away free points just for showing up.

As for fans not caring ... sports car racing doesn't have a lot of fans. But ... most of those fans can watch series where no one gets a free lap and then they come to TUSC and see this free-lap BS ... The fan base is pretty aware, and pretty intelligent.

Here is the real issue: Is the success of the series Dependent on the Lap-Down Wave-By? Is the "dash to thee finish" the make-or-break event?

If so, then there is no further discussion—we have to tolerate a *******ized sport in order to have a sport.

But i sincerely question whether TV ratings are dependent on the fake late-race yellow and the free laps. Based on the failure Rolex experienced versus ALMS, I'd say that the evidence supports the fake crap Not attracting more fans.

[johncho]

Just checked the LB entry list- it must be missing a page - where are the following prototype teams? I dont think FCY is related to where they are.

Level 5
Sahlens
8star
Dyson
Brumos
Starworks
muscle milk
Krohn

[skycafe]

Dyson?

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by johncho

Just checked the LB entry list- it must be missing a page - where are the following prototype teams? I dont think FCY is related to where they are.

Level 5
Sahlens
8star
Dyson
Brumos
Starworks
muscle milk
Krohn

Don't even know where to start with that list. Only two of the listed teams have actually run pro-class prototypes this season.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by johncho

Just checked the LB entry list- it must be missing a page - where are the following prototype teams? I dont think FCY is related to where they are.

Level 5 - Out of USCC
Sahlens - Out of USCC
8star - In PC
Dyson - Out of USCC
Brumos - Out of USCC
Starworks - Problems with their car/engine package/In PC
muscle milk - Skipping LB and Laguna
Krohn - Been running a Ferrari for a many years now

Here you go.

[canamman]

The Derek Bell article was very good. I clipped it and kept it.
That was my first 24 in 1990 when I saw him upside down in the 962
he mentions in the article.

I think all his points are right on mark. May do TUSC some good
to have someone such as Derek Bell or with similar qualifications
to be up in the top levels of the organization.

[Maelochs]

Even with only about 20 cars Long Beach should be an entertaining race, and as much as I carp about it, I am still--marginally--a supporter; I would rather see it improve than fold.

I'd imagine we will see some interesting applications of power around the hairpin and entering the start/finish straight and a couple other places, even with DPs on traction control, and GTLM ... well, nothing else in racing has worked so well for so long. It will be fine.

The shortness of the lap and the challenge of the track works strongly in favor of TUSC, because there is lots of inherent drama all the time on a street track in a multi-class race. If anyone does tune in on TV (depending of course on FCYs) they should get a good show ( real racing = "a good show",) which is what the series really needs.

I feel bad for TUSC about Sebring--not their fault that so much went wrong in the first half of the race but it sure torpedoed the TV coverage.

[LouisTheShark]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

"Lap down cars are getting some laps back not just because they happen to be in the right place at the right time, but because strategists on the teams adjust pit strategies to put their car in a favorable position."

Strongly disagree. Lap-down cars are getting their laps back because or the completely random occurrence of FCYs, which teams cannot plan for (except in the last hour of a TUSC race, of course.) Teams are adjusting strategies in that maybe they will keep a car out for an extra lap hoping for a yellow, but otherwise ... it falls to them, whenever a carr goes off.

Even if they "adjust strategies," they aren't Earning a lap—they are Gifted a lap. And the rela issue is Unfairness.

At Sebring ESM did everything right and Ryan Dalziel and David Brabham turned in amazingly fast precise stints, making no errors, maneuvering through dense traffic, and maximizing every opportunity to gain a lead against vastly more powerful cars. They Earned a lead.

All the cars which got free laps earned Nothing. They did nothing exceptional except too still be running when some other car stopped.

You speak of other sports adapting to the TV environment and the sensibilities of modern fans; I challenge you to name one sport which gives away free points just for showing up.

As for fans not caring ... sports car racing doesn't have a lot of fans. But ... most of those fans can watch series where no one gets a free lap and then they come to TUSC and see this free-lap BS ... The fan base is pretty aware, and pretty intelligent.

Here is the real issue: Is the success of the series Dependent on the Lap-Down Wave-By? Is the "dash to thee finish" the make-or-break event?

If so, then there is no further discussion—we have to tolerate a *******ized sport in order to have a sport.

But i sincerely question whether TV ratings are dependent on the fake late-race yellow and the free laps. Based on the failure Rolex experienced versus ALMS, I'd say that the evidence supports the fake crap Not attracting more fans.

Any form of regulation technical or sporting that balances performance is way of creating drama. While I do agree that sports car fans as a whole maybe a bit more educated about the sport, the fact is even the educated ones are a very small number in comparison to the ones coming to the track or happen to watch it on TV. As far as the Rolex series being the failure, well, their TV ratings were higher then ALMS on comparative networks. As a matter of fact, the Continental Series ratings often surpassed either on comparative networks. Neither series was setting the world on fire in regards to TV ratings and both series had some strong and some weak events that when combined over a total season showed that the total number of fans attending the events was not that dissimilar. This is especially true when you consider the combo events that both series participated in with the IRL or NASCAR. That makes that whole fan count argument really cloudy. Actually I have been told that based on just how the numbers are added up for the year and later marketed, Rolex actually had more spectators at the track. But the difference was marginal and mostly helped by the combo events. The ALMS at same tracks usually outdrew Rolex although Rolex events often were more profitable for a track due to the sanction structure.

Back to the idea of what other sports do to create drama. How about these examples:

Why does the NFL need a 2 minute warning at the end of a half?
Why does the NFL need 3 time outs per half?
Why does the NFL allow spiking ball to stop the clock?
Why does the NBA need more than one time out per quarter?
Why does the NBA allow purposely fouling another player so that time is stopped and the possession time of one team is reduced?
Why did FIFA go from 2 substitutes to 3 substitutes and is now debating to go to a 4th substitute during extra time?
Why did FIFA expand the World Cup team to now include 32 teams. It used to be mostly 16, then 24 and now 32. What is next?
Why did UEFA increase the European Championships from 8 to 16 to now 24 teams?

It is all about drama, inclusion, fan expansion and money. Sound familiar?

[Maelochs]

Which sport gives away points just for showing up??

Look ... I think everyone with the slightest interest has seen sport adapt to TV and to modern fans. Rules to promote more scoring, more passing in football ... but my issue---as I stated clearly--is Fairness.

That's not the only issue I have with the LDWB but I think I have said plenty on other aspects.

Also, I mentioned Rolex not to start the ALMS/Rolex fight, but because Rolex had the same rule and it didn't attract fans.

I attended races run by both series and I don't count ticket sales but people along the fences. More at ALMS. But ... Rolex had better TV numbers (I think because ALMS TV set out to prove that even great racing could look really bad if the director made an effort.) But seriously ... Both series failed.

Rolex, however, used the questionable late yellow and the LDWB, and obviously it didn't attract a lot of fans. I am not going to debate which one was less a loser because both lost.

Anyway ... read all your points and accept them. I disagree but that does not render your facts invalid or your logic illogical. You present your case well and it seems sound. We just disagree. Has been a pleasure to learn your point of view. Thanks very much.

[Dodge_Swinger]

Originally Posted by LouisTheShark

Any form of regulation technical or sporting that balances performance is way of creating drama. While I do agree that sports car fans as a whole maybe a bit more educated about the sport, the fact is even the educated ones are a very small number in comparison to the ones coming to the track or happen to watch it on TV. As far as the Rolex series being the failure, well, their TV ratings were higher then ALMS on comparative networks. As a matter of fact, the Continental Series ratings often surpassed either on comparative networks. Neither series was setting the world on fire in regards to TV ratings and both series had some strong and some weak events that when combined over a total season showed that the total number of fans attending the events was not that dissimilar. This is especially true when you consider the combo events that both series participated in with the IRL or NASCAR. That makes that whole fan count argument really cloudy. Actually I have been told that based on just how the numbers are added up for the year and later marketed, Rolex actually had more spectators at the track. But the difference was marginal and mostly helped by the combo events. The ALMS at same tracks usually outdrew Rolex although Rolex events often were more profitable for a track due to the sanction structure.

Back to the idea of what other sports do to create drama. How about these examples:

Why does the NFL need a 2 minute warning at the end of a half?
Why does the NFL need 3 time outs per half?
Why does the NFL allow spiking ball to stop the clock?
Why does the NBA need more than one time out per quarter?
Why does the NBA allow purposely fouling another player so that time is stopped and the possession time of one team is reduced?
Why did FIFA go from 2 substitutes to 3 substitutes and is now debating to go to a 4th substitute during extra time?
Why did FIFA expand the World Cup team to now include 32 teams. It used to be mostly 16, then 24 and now 32. What is next?
Why did UEFA increase the European Championships from 8 to 16 to now 24 teams?

It is all about drama, inclusion, fan expansion and money. Sound familiar?

Totally agree that the things you listed are there to create drama, commercial breaks, etc. None of them has the effect of allowing the losing team to catch up and create the false sense that the teams or players are more evenly matched than they actually are, though.

[belt driven]

Could somebody who went to Sebring in 2013 explain how the #4 Corvette went 2 laps down in hour 3 and had the lead again at the 6 hour mark? There was one 3 lap caution in the interval. They did not set fastest lap.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by LouisTheShark

It is all about drama, inclusion, fan expansion and money. Sound familiar?

Yeah, here in the USA we pay a hefty price (in many ways) for the price of fuel. There is not any other sport in the world that is as directly tied to international politics as motor racing.

I'm going to jump many steps ahead and just say that endurance prototype sports car racing, at its heart, is about lasting, being more efficient and being powerful and fast while you do so.

When you achieve these goals, it is entertaining. When you set entertainment as the primary goal and do not achieve any of the other goals, it is a hollow victory. It's that simple.

[Matt]

IMSA GTP was entertainment then. They threw out the rules about allocated fuel and just let the guys build fast, powerful, gas guzzling machines.

[Dodge_Swinger]

Originally Posted by Matt

IMSA GTP was entertainment then. They threw out the rules about allocated fuel and just let the guys build fast, powerful, gas guzzling machines.

And let them race. In the GTP days, the winning car was often several laps ahead. That is not allowed to happen in TUSCC.

I was living in the UK during the 80s. I went to several Group C races. Being originally from the Atlanta area, I also attended several Camel GT races at Road Atlanta during that period. I thought both series were great. Neither series gave free laps to anyone.

FCYs may be here to stay, but wave arounds don't have to be.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by johncho

Just checked the LB entry list- it must be missing a page - where are the following prototype teams? I dont think FCY is related to where they are.

Level 5
Sahlens
8star
Dyson
Brumos
Starworks
muscle milk
Krohn

Not to mention, 8Star is headed back to the top class later this year with the Liger / HPD

http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/10221...onda-p2-switch

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by belt driven

Could somebody who went to Sebring in 2013 explain how the #4 Corvette went 2 laps down in hour 3 and had the lead again at the 6 hour mark? There was one 3 lap caution in the interval. They did not set fastest lap.

Really good strategy. They don't need to set fast lap after fast lap...all about consistency.

[FstrthnU]

It's not simply about setting the fastest lap, it's when and how many good laps you do. The other cars may have been held up by traffic more or had some slow driver stints. A car with 8 good laps will do better than a car with 2 ultra-fast laps and 6 slow laps.

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by Dodge_Swinger

Totally agree that the things you listed are there to create drama, commercial breaks, etc. None of them has the effect of allowing the losing team to catch up and create the false sense that the teams or players are more evenly matched than they actually are, though.

I was looking at that analogy and wondering what the reaction would be if FIFA put a rule in to allow a losing team to get one goal back each time there was an injury on the field.....

[Disraeli Eers]

It's quite a stark contrast reading through this thread for a couple months, and then reading the thread for the WEC Prolougue this weekend. I don't know whether to be sad or angry.

[belt driven]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Really good strategy. They don't need to set fast lap after fast lap...all about consistency.

Originally Posted by FstrthnU

It's not simply about setting the fastest lap, it's when and how many good laps you do. The other cars may have been held up by traffic more or had some slow driver stints. A car with 8 good laps will do better than a car with 2 ultra-fast laps and 6 slow laps.

Those are 2 glib answers…

If we were to assume 2.5 hours of continuous running (no pit stops/cautions) to make up 2 laps and 2:00/lap; you would need to AVERAGE 3.2 seconds/lap faster than the class leader(s). Timing/scoring would probably notice many fastest laps. Sorry guys; “good strategy” doesn’t cover that!

I was asking of whomever attended what specific mechanical problems, bad pit stops, time penalties, “bad strategy”, etc. that cost the other guys 2 laps.

[Rodger Davies]

Anyone got an idea what Magnus' twitter is up to? Or is it some sort of April Fools thing accidentally posted too early?

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

Anyone got an idea what Magnus' twitter is up to? Or is it some sort of April Fools thing accidentally posted too early?

Exactly that

[jasonjessica09]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

Exactly that

Remember that Tuesday is April 1 (april fool's day). I would be careful not to speculate anything you read or hear about tommorrow.