Audi LMP1 Discussion

[Dimension]

Like I said, I remember reading about this in Sport Auto early to mid last year. I do not recall however, if those were numbers released by the ACO, or if they were numbers calculated based on ACO data by third parties.

In either case however, there was some information out there that Audi must have been aware of and no doubt took into account. Back then, it was rumored that Porsche may be and Toyota will most likely be in the 8mJ class. Why was this rumored to be? because of the ERS incentive.

Whats even weirder now that I think about it is that Audi was actually the last manufacturer to announce their mJ class iirc. By then they knew and must've known for months on end that the incentive exists.

So yes. To me, its clear that Audi were sure enough they can offset the incentive so that it didn't warrant modifying the car accordingly. Which imo they definitely had the time to.

*edit* do we actually have access to the rules as they were, lets say september 2013? Would be interesting if Sport Auto back then went by whats in the rules, or whats purported as intent by some insiders.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Homologation of the new car by the ACO-FIA was publicly announced on March 3rd, 2014 and I understand that the choice of the ERS option is actually part of the homologation of the car. I may be wrong though.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Audi will be very strong and they are still the favorites to win at Le Mans.

While I share the belief that Audi are still strong contenders, how do you have them as favourites? At the moment Toyota are quicker and the cars seem as reliable as each other, driver error aside. Or is it just 3 > 2?

[carbon_titanium]

Like 2010, the only card in the hand of audi is the reliability

[Acid09]

Audi always has a special mojo and self esteem at Le Mans, that will work in their favor.

Still, they seem to be off speed-wise this year and they're facing two capable works outfits, not just one. So a repeat of 2010 is much less likely.

I see Audi in the same position that Porsche often was in the past. They don't have the quickest car but they have all the Le Mans experience to bank on which always makes them a threat. But favorites? Hardly...

[Articus]

Courtesy of Audi France:
Special Message for Porsche

[Bandicoot17]

Nice little message for when the Porsches come round to lap them.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Dimension

I'm not contesting that there is an ACO bias towards bigger Hybrids. I read about it last year in Sport Auto.

IMO the only real discussion to be had there is that if its Audis fault they did not switch to a more suited ERS class despite knowing this about a year beforehand, or its the ACO's fault for not clarifying that there is a bias until said year ago, at which point Audi were unable or unwilling to switch.

Seeing as how Audi themselves are talking about it, they went with a concept that was inflexible to last-minute class changes and decided to do so very early on. They took a risk imo.

Audi starting as early as 2012 to design the car doesn't seem unreasonable to me, they have many people employed and I bet they were using that to get a leg up on toyota. Toyota underestimated Audi in 2013 naturally, because they didn't expect Audi being able to split their development crew so that they could outcompete Toyota for most of 2013 all the while putting a lot of time into development of the 2014 car.

One problem is that Audi apparently went into a dead end with the HERS. Who knows how much time and manpower they put into it before deciding to axe it.

And the other Problem of course is that they had most of the car done by the time the ACO, within a reasonable timeframe imo, clarified the ERS incentive. At that point they apparently thought they were still competitive enough not to warrant changing the class (which apparently would've meant changing the car).

Here's the crux, the numbers concerning laptime differences that are now touted as being unheard of were already known back in summer or spring 2013 to the well-educated press, and no doubt to Audi as well. Clearly, they thought they had the performance and strategic advantage to offset the ERS incentive, because otherwise they'd have decided to switch cars, which would've meant maybe losing 1-4 months compared to toyota, and still having a few months advantage of Porsche. Of course there's a risk here, that Toyota might be able to outdevelop Audi until Le-Mans.

So they looked at the risk of building/heavily modifying their 2014 car according to the new rules within the given timeframe and weighed it against the risk of not being able to develop their original 2014 car to the point where it is competitive despite the incentive and they decided for the latter.

And like I said before, all things considering, there's not much to suggest Audi isn't competitive at Le-Mans, ERS incentive be damned.

I dont agree that Toyota underestimated Audi. They had the diesel advantage in 2013. They could afford to run the blown exhaust because they had such an advantage. They also copied the double rear wing (wheel arch extensions they called it). So they could run low drag while still making downforce at the rear. Toyota couldnt do that because the gains were negatively offset by the fuel usage penalty. This year blown exhausts are forbidden, but Audi still tries to mimic the effects as you see on the LM package.

Whats further in this "incentive" business is every team knew the same information while designing their package. There was wording in the original draft about incentives to bigger hybrids. Just now its pace instead of distance. Audi didnt cover themselves considering this. Even if it stayed as an ers "distance" incentive (with longer stints) it would be worth exploring 4mj, 6mj etc. So why did they cut themselves off so early? Its not just the rules' fault that they went with the least amount of hybrid.

[Articus]

Obviously mistakes were made? I can't tell if your suggesting Audi just don't know what they're doing?

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Audi always has a special mojo and self esteem at Le Mans, that will work in their favor.

I prefer to call it "experience".

Originally Posted by Acid09

Still, they seem to be off speed-wise this year and they're facing two capable works outfits, not just one. So a repeat of 2010 is much less likely.

Well, one of those teams have straight line speed, but lack reliability and a stable platform. Besides that, the "new" team has little or no Le Mans experience.

Originally Posted by Acid09

I see Audi in the same position that Porsche often was in the past. They don't have the quickest car but they have all the Le Mans experience to bank on which always makes them a threat. But favorites? Hardly...

..but they are the reigning Le Mans winners, and have won it more than anyone one else (despite dubious opposition for many of those wins) over the last decade. Furthermore, they will have 3 cars. That certainly makes them "favorites" in my book.

[GT6]

Audi must be feeling confident if they allow a bit of humour like this

[gwyllion]

Or the marketing people have not talked to the technical people recently.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by GT6

Audi must be feeling confident if they allow a bit of humour like this

Note that this comes from Audi France, not from Audi Sport as such, and one may actually wonder if Audi Sport are pleased with this small note of humour addressed to Porsche. This is not the sort of humour that Mr. Pippig has accustomed us to. This is more like the Audi vs. BMW "add war" in the USA. Are Audi France trying to launch a similar add war with Porsche ?

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Or the marketing people have not talked to the technical people recently.

Seems more like it

[CTD]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Note that this comes from Audi France, not from Audi Sport as such, and one may actually wonder if Audi Sport are pleased with this small note of humour addressed to Porsche. This is not the sort of humour that Mr. Pippig has accustomed us to. This is more like the Audi vs. BMW "add war" in the USA. Are Audi France trying to launch a similar add war with Porsche ?

A very smart move indeed!
It will divide the customers into a Porsche and an Audi group. Making them focus more on those two brands.
And in the end, put more money in VAG.

Just like the Audi vs. BMW ad campaign, people will "forget" Mercedes.
If Audi and Porsche can make Le Mans about an Audi vs. Porsche battle for the general public, they will increase their marketing benefit. (as Toyota would more or less be "forgotten")

[GT6]

i think nothing gets done in Audi without the appropriate permission

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Articus

Obviously mistakes were made? I can't tell if your suggesting Audi just don't know what they're doing?

I think they just made a risky choice by going to 2mj/lap. It may be they would be compromised trying 4mj with the flywheel? I think Diesel has more of an advantage than what we have seen, theyll be fine even if slower.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by CTD

(as Toyota would more or less be "forgotten")

I don't think they even care. Toyota's effort seems much, much less advertising & PR driven than what Porsche & Audi do.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Acid09

I don't think they even care. Toyota's effort seems much, much less advertising & PR driven than what Porsche & Audi do.

I am sure that will change on June 16th if they achieve their goal....

[GT6]

If toyota wins I suspect TV and Newspapers will do very well out of a flood of Toyota advertising, and quite right to

[Articus]

Originally Posted by CTD

A very smart move indeed!
It will divide the customers into a Porsche and an Audi group. Making them focus more on those two brands.
And in the end, put more money in VAG.

Just like the Audi vs. BMW ad campaign, people will "forget" Mercedes.
If Audi and Porsche can make Le Mans about an Audi vs. Porsche battle for the general public, they will increase their marketing benefit. (as Toyota would more or less be "forgotten")

In all honesty, who here gives a damn about a Toyota if you could pick between an Audi and a Porsche for your garage...It's interesting because really Toyota should be running a Super GT program and Lexus should be running the P1 program but it's complete opposite.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Articus

In all honesty, who here gives a damn about a Toyota if you could pick between an Audi and a Porsche for your garage...It's interesting because really Toyota should be running a Super GT program and Lexus should be running the P1 program but it's complete opposite.

Well, not sure on the members here but, 9.9million people bought a Toyota product last year . Lexus is coming to Le Mans GT with the RC-F. Id rather a Toyota or Lexus than an Audi, but thats just me. I think more people can relate to Toyota than Lexus and it may prove a better move to promote hybrid sales. I dont see any hybrid Porsches and very few Audis on the road, maybe that will change?

[Articus]

Apologies I didn't make it totally clear - and comparing global sales is like comparing apples to oranges. Different market. If you were being offered a Toyota model of choice, Audi of choice, Porsche of choice free of charge. Which would you choose? - I know I wouldn't even consider any Toyota models... To be totally honest, I've never found my interest in cars to be swayed by which auto maker is winning Le Mans or which automaker is winning Formula 1 (otherwise I'd have an Audi or a Red Bull (whatever that means). Yet these companies seem to think otherwise. Obviously I'm happy for that otherwise there would be no motor racing but...still don't really understand.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by Articus

If you were being offered a Toyota model of choice, Audi of choice, Porsche of choice free of charge. Which would you choose? - I know I wouldn't even consider any Toyota models...

Not even a TS020?
(PS yes I know where you were coming from and I agree)

Anyways. If PR is what makes Audi come to Le Mans & endurance racing, so be it. I hate PR but you gotta admit it keeps some classics alive.

[CyberMotor]

Return on Investment (ROI). If you don't get it in prize money (which we know there is little in sportscar racing) then you get it through publicity and marketing. If you win Le Mans, you are the world's best at that moment and you will be listed in the history books.

It takes billions in investment, smart engineering, great team work, the best technology and the best drivers (with a whole bunch of luck) to win. When you do, crow all you want through your PR and marketing efforts because you deserve to and earned the right to shout loud and often.

Plus, it's good for the sport when you do.