[BTCC] BTCC 2020 season discussion, News and Rumours!

[S griffin]

It's easier for fans to social distance at Donington now the infield is open to spectators again. Had it been how it had been a few years ago, where it was off limits due to the failed GP bid, it would have been more difficult

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by RS67

The only prize is for the insurance company if you don't make a claim, because they don't have to pay out and they have basically got your premium for nothing.

Compare that last sentence to going to a casino and playing roulette:

You give your money to the house (your insurance premium) and if the circumstances don't work out (your accident/chance doesn't materialise) the house keeps your money.

That's why, other than the minimum legal requirement, taking out insurance is a gamble.
The house (insurance company) isn't gambling, they will always have wagers made with them, but their pay out is a controlled figure that will always be less than the sum of money taken in.

But, this has gone way off topic from a discussion about sponsorship deals in BTCC. It's clear you are not understanding how the business of providing insurance is never a gamble. Anything more on the point is just going to be forum tennis.

BTCC sponsorship is struggling this season, for obvious reasons. This has already impacted the grid in a significant way. Do we really think that those trying to secure their drive haven't already been working hard to obtain these mythical opportunities of guaranteed backing?

Once again, I'm amazed how a bunch of people at a keyboard seem to know more about how to get sponsors for a BTCC drive than those in the paddock who have been doing it for years!

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

That's why, other than the minimum legal requirement, taking out insurance is a gamble.
The house (insurance company) isn't gambling, they will always have wagers made with them, but their pay out is a controlled figure that will always be less than the sum of money taken in.

Taking out the basic third party insurance is the biggest gamble for any car insurance customer. You are gambling on the fact that you will never need to make a claim.

Insurance companies gamble on the fact that they do infact get enough people taking out insurance and not having to pay out to cover any claims.

Insurance companies like bookmakers have gone bankrupt because their payouts have outweighed their income.

As for teams finding sponsorship, it depends on how hard a driver or team has had to work finding that sponsorship. When Pirtek decided last year that they weren't going to be sponsoring Jordan anymore, he was left in the position of not being on the grid this year, biggest reason being, for quite a number of years, he hadn't had to look for a big sponsor, that was guaranteed, all he needed was smaller sponsors to put up smaller amounts to pay himself a wage etc.

As I keep pointing out, with insurance companies, they practically have a guaranteed income even during this pandemic, PMR's business model appeared to be based on hospitality rather than a big sponsor and without teams now being able to offer hospitality, they really haven't had enough time to find an alternative sponsor. Their current sponsor has probably agreed to a deal of so much money for so many years. The don't want to commit to a larger amount, I have never heard of them prior to sponsoring PMR, so perhaps they aren't big enough and the maths don't work in their favour to commit to more money. PMR can't exactly try to convince another rival insurance company to make up the short fall. But other teams can, it is just convincing the insurance companies that it sponsoring a car/driver and the raised profile and income they could get from their name appearing on TV for a few weekends, or in motorsport magazines etc is worthwhile.
It's like RCIB, they were just a small local insurance broker, yet by the fact that they have been sponsoring btcc teams for a number of years, Mike Joseph has obviously finds it pays off.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by RS67

Insurance companies gamble on the fact that they do infact get enough people taking out insurance and not having to pay out to cover any claims.

No they don’t.

You’ve made many good posts here over a period of time but you’re just making yourself look foolish now I’m afraid.

I’m not even sure what insurance companies sponsor. I think they are brokers - which is not the same at all.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by RS67

PMR's business model appeared to be based on hospitality rather than a big sponsor

As does pretty much every genuine commercial deal in the BTCC.

The ones that don’t are the “full works” and “professional” deals - the mainly imaginary ones that is.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by snowen250

for the HSCC meeting at Brands this weekend the entire circuit was open for viewing. All very sensible and although not as busy as a BTCC Sunday, it was on the level of a BTCC Saturday.

Only area you couldn't go was the paddock, which is fair enough. So bodes well for the GP meeting in August for touring cars.

Good to hear - so far everyone seems to be sticking to the rules and being sensible - which of course leads us on to.....

Originally Posted by snowen250

I did say sensible...any comment that HSCC spectators are a bit more...sensible...then BTCC ones is your own and not mine!

I'll say nothing other than the only time I've seen spectators fighting or so drunk they can't stand is at a BTCC meeting.

[S griffin]

Are there any stalls open at the circuit? I guess it shouldn’t be too much of a problem if they are, although I can imagine there wouldn’t be too many

[RS67]

Originally Posted by peebee2

No they don’t.

You’ve made many good posts here over a period of time but you’re just making yourself look foolish now I’m afraid.

I’m not even sure what insurance companies sponsor. I think they are brokers - which is not the same at all.

Fact: insurance companies have gone bankrupt, because their payouts exceeded their income. Just because the odds against it happening are stacked in the insurance companies favour, it doesn't mean it isn't a gamble. Why do you think people who live in areas subject to flooding or landslides struggle or can't get property insurance. Insurance companies are unwilling to take the risk (gamble).

[peebee2]

No problem. You’ve proved you don’t understand how insurance risk works several times now...

[RS67]

Originally Posted by peebee2

No problem. You’ve proved you don’t understand how insurance risk works several times now...

Quite the opposite. I am fully aware of how they work, just as how I am aware of insurance companies that have gone bankrupt when it has all gone wrong. You are just burying your head in the sand to the fact it can go wrong and has indeed gone wrong for some.

[Greem]

Can you both calculate the risk of everyone else getting fed up with arguments about insurance, or is carrying on with that line of "conversation" (quotes deliberate and very sarcastically toned) a gamble?

[Greem]

Originally Posted by RS67

At Saturday's race meeting all spectators were kept to Redgate banking. Obviously a much smaller event and less stewards required to keep an eye on spectators. With a bigger event like BTCC, the crowd will be bigger, more stewards will be required and more viewing areas will be used.

On both Saturday and Sunday there were visitors up at McLeans (where I was) and Coppice, and on the infield. I think the hardy ones had walked all the way round, then through the Coppice tunnel, but had to return the same way. As I understand it, parking was indeed on the Tarmac Lake and visitors entered the circuit via a gate between Redgate and Hollywood (although I could be wrong there).

It was really, really good to get back on track again.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by RS67

Quite the opposite. I am fully aware of how they work, just as how I am aware of insurance companies that have gone bankrupt when it has all gone wrong. You are just burying your head in the sand to the fact it can go wrong and has indeed gone wrong for some.

Off the top of my head, I can only think of one UK based actual insurer, not an insurance company which covers brokerages and firms that just place their business risks with other insurers, that has gone bust since the 1960s. And that was a case of fraud, rather than paying out more than their revenue.

[peebee2]

Green’s right. I cba anymore with a ridiculous argument about a type of company which generally doesn’t sponsor Motorsport anyway...

[RS67]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Off the top of my head, I can only think of one UK based actual insurer, not an insurance company which covers brokerages and firms that just place their business risks with other insurers, that has gone bust since the 1960s. And that was a case of fraud, rather than paying out more than their revenue.

One went bankrupt as recent as 2018.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Green’s right. I cba anymore with a ridiculous argument about a type of company which generally doesn’t sponsor Motorsport anyway...

The discussion was about teams/ drivers having to find alternative sponsorship as some existing sponsors have suffered financially and can no longer afford the sponsorship. As car insurers have had a big drop in claims over recent months their profits have grown and would be ideal candidates for replacing those sponsors. It really is that simple. All the drivers or teams need to do is convince the companies to part with some of that money.

[Peter Mallett]

[MOD]Notwithstanding the obvious actuarial expertise being displayed on the subject of insurance, I'd suggest that that part of the discussion has concluded. Back to slagging off drivers and other stuff. [/MOD]

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by RS67

As car insurers have had a big drop in claims over recent months their profits have grown and would be ideal candidates for replacing those sponsors. It really is that simple. All the drivers or teams need to do is convince the companies to part with some of that money.

And here we are, full circle back at the original point.

A) - the two biggest profiles to withdraw so far were reliant (in at least part) on backing from firms who traded in insurance.
B) - if it is really that simple - what pearls of wisdom do you have for drivers/teams to convince those companies to reverse the trend of recent weeks?

I'm sure those on the grid would love to know how you've identified certain firms as candidates, that they haven't already considered themselves. Or is this yet another case of posters on a forum being smarter than those at the heart of the sport?

The facts are clear to see - and drivers/teams are (I'm certain) far more acutely aware of how to obtain sponsorship backing than a casual poster on a Motorsport forum. It's a regular occurrence though - that 'common sense' is used to argue a point that goes against the knowledge and experience of the experts in the field. And it seems to be happening here again. The following was posted recently about understanding COVID-19, but I think it is relevant to understanding how Motorsport sponsorship works:

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by RS67

One went bankrupt as recent as 2018.

Best as I can tell, two insurance companies went bust in 2018; however, neither was based in the UK - one was registered in Denmark and the other in Gibraltar. And I believe that both companies used third parties to underwrite all their policies.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

And here we are, full circle back at the original point.

A) - the two biggest profiles to withdraw so far were reliant (in at least part) on backing from firms who traded in insurance.
B) - if it is really that simple - what pearls of wisdom do you have for drivers/teams to convince those companies to reverse the trend of recent weeks?

I'm sure those on the grid would love to know how you've identified certain firms as candidates, that they haven't already considered themselves. Or is this yet another case of posters on a forum being smarter than those at the heart of the sport?

The facts are clear to see - and drivers/teams are (I'm certain) far more acutely aware of how to obtain sponsorship backing than a casual poster on a Motorsport forum. It's a regular occurrence though - that 'common sense' is used to argue a point that goes against the knowledge and experience of the experts in the field. And it seems to be happening here again. The following was posted recently about understanding COVID-19, but I think it is relevant to understanding how Motorsport sponsorship works:

The all important word in that attachment is "probably". There is no guarantee that would be the outcome. But you are just wrongfully willing to accept that it proves your point and there lies your limitation.

As has already been pointed out Stirling are just an insurance broker as are RCIB. They don't insure people they merely act as a middleman and find you the cheapest quote from the group of insurers on their books. So they won't have seen any of the money that the insurance companies have saved due to reduced claims.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Best as I can tell, two insurance companies went bust in 2018; however, neither was based in the UK - one was registered in Denmark and the other in Gibraltar. And I believe that both companies used third parties to underwrite all their policies.

The Danish company had insured British motorists. All insurance policies are underwritten.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

[MOD]Notwithstanding the obvious actuarial expertise being displayed on the subject of insurance, I'd suggest that that part of the discussion has concluded. Back to slagging off drivers and other stuff. [/MOD]

That worked well. Maybe you need a bigger stick

[VIVA GT]

18 days, 19 hours and 1 minute to go to the start of the next BTCC event at Donington Park.
Jeez, if this continues that is going to seem like an eternity!

[AnnoyedMoose]

On a more interesting note than insurance debates one of the BTCC Subarus is up for sale by BMR on RaceCarsDirect for £125k

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by redshoes

That worked well. Maybe you need a bigger stick

Hmm, trust me to expect some semblance of intelligence.