IMSA TUSC 2015 Entries, Schedule, and Rumors

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think the decision to drop lmp1 was for one obvious reason, new management didnt want their guys (dp owners) losing. P2's could be slowed enough, P1 couldn't.

Never ascribe to malice what you can explain with incompetence.

Seriously, I have a hard time believing that Jim France et al would be so petty. Not after spending north of $20 million on acquiring ALMS.

On paper going with a combined P2 and DP top class looked like the easiest way to get double digit figures at the front of the field. They simply underestimated how difficult/near impossible it would be to make the two concepts competitive over a race distance.

As for what happened between the early 2000s and now. Well, Peugeot happened. They and Audi really pushed each other to reach new planes of technological advancement and in the process P1s became absolute technological marvels, if at the price of privateer competitiveness. The R8 was - as I see it - still a fairly conventional prototype, an exceptionally good one of course, but more or less an evolution of its predecessors in the 90s. I think the fact that it was still possible to run one as a customer car really shows that. The diesels however were a revolution and they were far above everything that had come before them and no privateer has been able to remotely catch up with them ever since.

[BullMan]

Jim France bought the series for the fans that loved it, the Sebring 12 Hours, the most prestigous road race in the hemisphere, and to a lesser extent, Road Atlanta. NASCAR didn't care about the cars that ran in the series. They just wanted the hard assets and the eyeballs.

[seanyb505]

Maybe the DP preference by NASCAR/Grand Am/current mgmt is incompetence? Doesn't have to be only attributable to malice. The ALMS incompetence was in the lack of promotion and budgeting. The GA incompetence was in a number of things, though I'll say the stubbornness to stick with cars that were major prohibitors in growing the fan base was a major no-no. Inability to see that people don't flock for DP and tube frame Mazda's is incompetence, not malice. That incompetence has carried over. It's not that Mgmt now is being malicious toward P2 or ALMS fans, just foolish in thinking the newly acquired increase in fans will stick around for GA 2.0.

I desperately hope TUSC isn't replaced by GA 2.0, but show me a bright spot. 2017 can be abandoned if there's no reason for TUSC to pursue it. (See GT Convergence for example). They'll come up with something, I just don't feel like it'll be any kind of redeeming solution.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by BullMan

Jim France bought the series for the fans that loved it, the Sebring 12 Hours, the most prestigous road race in the hemisphere, and to a lesser extent, Road Atlanta. NASCAR didn't care about the cars that ran in the series. They just wanted the hard assets and the eyeballs.

LeMans is in the same hemisphere...they got the assets, the eyeballs are tired.

[Maelochs]

I don't attribute it to malice, pettiness, or stupidity. I think Jim France and the NASCAR sportscar crew might really think that the DP model offers the beast path forward business-wise.

Seeing what they have done to NASCAR, and what they did to kill AMA, it seems reasonable that the Frances really believe that cheap, easy-to-repair, long-lasting (which means slow-developing) machinery which is kept about equal by constrictive rules offers the best "racing entertainment product" for the modern American viewer.

If they truly believe that, then being swayed by a few early difficulties would be foolish--their best bet would seem to be sticking it out with their original idea and laughing at all the naysayers when it blossoms into a new NASCAR in a few years ' time.

I also think the Frances are starting to see that their NASCAR plan simply does not translate to toehr branches of the sport--that there are no masses of fans waiting for a new form of the same old product, but there are seriously committed numbers of fans who will follow and support their chosen arms of the sport--if they arer not mutated beyond recognition.

For a company on the ride NASCAR has been on (look at the past twenty years--and most of the people in management there have either joined during that time are watched it happen, and probably cannot conceive of a time when "stock-car racing" was a regional sport and NASCAR was unknown to a lot of people.

It could be tough for the whole organization to admit it was wrong, and to have to also accept that their new acquisition might not make very much money for them--that maybe, like AMA, it was a deal which would have been better avoided.

I do think that the passing of Roger Edmondson started a new era in NASCAR's ancillary series--execs came in who could see that Rolex and AMA simply weren't responding to the NASCAR management model. Not saying these execs will suddenly understand sports car racing, but I think there is some chance that NASCAR will adopt a wholly different and much more ALMS/ACO-oriented model by 2017.

Unfortunately I see no hope at all for the next two seasons.

[David Land]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

I desperately hope TUSC isn't replaced by GA 2.0, but show me a bright spot. 2017 can be abandoned if there's no reason for TUSC to pursue it. (See GT Convergence for example). They'll come up with something, I just don't feel like it'll be any kind of redeeming solution.

This.

How do these people expect teams in a series, that by 2017, will be on its last leg to afford brand spankin' new P2 cars? Unless Chevy or NASCAR pay for it... I don't see it happening.

I said this wen we were debating P1 and I will say it again. How can this series expect, when entries are going to be in the single digits again in the P class next year, that there will be any new interest, fans, teams, sponsorship dollars, or manufacturers gained in the time between now and 2017?

I can tell you right now there wont be, there will less... significantly less.

I foresee DP cars running well past 2017 if the series hasn't folded by then, you can't sell a stale stagnant product for 3 years and then expect everything to magically change. The first step to this was P2 as the (only) top class, and they failed at making that happen.

I can't even get frustrated at this anymore, as there is hardly anything left in it to keep my interest.

[Speed-King]

I said this wen we were debating P1 and I will say it again. How can this series expect, when entries are going to be in the single digits again in the P class next year, that there will be any new interest, fans, teams, sponsorship dollars, or manufacturers gained in the time between now and 2017?

I'd have tended to agree with you, but after thinking about this for a while I don't know how true your statement actually is. After all, we have seen three sportcar series bounce back from the death bed in spectacular fashion in recent years with British GT, ELMS and World Challenge. So I am not sure if TUSC couldn't pull that off as well.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by David Land

I can't even get frustrated at this anymore, as there is hardly anything left in it to keep my interest.

Exactly. They screwed the pooch, and it's going to cost them. I still watch the races, but, meh, I get to it when I can, and I am only paying half-attention.

[Gulf]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Exactly. They screwed the pooch, and it's going to cost them. I still watch the races, but, meh, I get to it when I can, and I am only paying half-attention.

I haven't watched a race since Sebring which I was unforchantly at. This is Ga Just with some of those *** cars thrown in. It has been since the pre roar test or maybe even before with the incompetent decision to only test right before the start of the season. I don't think there is any real reason to expect DPs to go away it's part of the nascar mentality and they think they can force fans to like the heterosexual Murican sports cars.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I'd have tended to agree with you, but after thinking about this for a while I don't know how true your statement actually is. After all, we have seen three sportcar series bounce back from the death bed in spectacular fashion in recent years with British GT, ELMS and World Challenge. So I am not sure if TUSC couldn't pull that off as well.

BGT and PWC are not sportscars series and never were. Having only the ELMS as an example doesn't say a lot to underline your point.

However, it is certainly possible that several manufacturers and (potential) prototype teams will play the wait-and-see-game and perhaps focus on WEC/ELMS/PWC/Blancpain/other in the next couple of years before (re)joining and rejuvenating the series (TUSC) in 2017. It all depends on IMSA's direction and decisions.

In other words: I guess there's hope for 2017 - how much will vary for each of you, I'm far from convinced IMSA (in whatever composition) can pull it off...

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I'd have tended to agree with you, but after thinking about this for a while I don't know how true your statement actually is. After all, we have seen three sportcar series bounce back from the death bed in spectacular fashion in recent years with British GT, ELMS and World Challenge. So I am not sure if TUSC couldn't pull that off as well.

The only reason British GT and SCCA WC are really on upswing is because of GT3 invasion, which is happening everywhere anyway. And while ELMS resurrection has other factors in it, allowing GT3 has boosted it's grids too.

[Speed-King]

Naw, BGT actually was at its nadir as a GT3 series with less than ten cars at some races in 2009 or so. GT3 had almost killed the series at that time...and in fact has killed Belgian and Spanish GT.
The reasons for BGT's resurgence are others. Maybe Graham Godwin can chime in here.

[Deleted]

By quick check the lowest race entry for BGT in 09 was 20 cars...

e: guess you meant 2010. Majority were not GT3 though but mix of misc machinery

[Ginaro Zukovsky]

Lowest in 2009 was Knockhill with 10: http://www.tsl-timing.com/?loc=major...&tabletype=gif - compared with 23 (inc 7 GT4) in the previous year.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Gulf

I haven't watched a race since Sebring which I was unforchantly at. This is Ga Just with some of those *** cars thrown in. It has been since the pre roar test or maybe even before with the incompetent decision to only test right before the start of the season. I don't think there is any real reason to expect DPs to go away it's part of the nascar mentality and they think they can force fans to like the heterosexual Murican sports cars.

I was also there...it just killed me. It killed Sebring for me. While I loved the weather and company, it just wasn't all that much fun.

Our phrase for the weekend was "f***ing NASCAR"

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Chiana

By quick check the lowest race entry for BGT in 09 was 20 cars...

e: guess you meant 2010. Majority were not GT3 though but mix of misc machinery

Dunno where you looked it up, racingsportscars.com has no race with anything close to 20 cars for 09 other than the multiseries race at Spa.

Though you are right, they never actually fell below ten cars across the field... though GT3 was usually around 8 cars with the rest split between GT4, Superlights and invitational.

[Deleted]

Actually it was racingsportscars, but some of the races I checked were accidentally for Britcar so sorry for that

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Actually it was racingsportscars, but some of the races I checked were accidentally for Britcar so sorry for that

Yeah, people were actually calling for BGT to be killed off in favor of Britcar back then. Nowadays Britcar is the one that's almost dead.

[Dodge_Swinger]

During a Petit discussion today at work, a colleague used the following analogy (among other reasons) why he isn't going to the race.

IMSA/NASCAR views the cars like Major League Baseball or the NFL views a baseball or football; it's a piece of equipment, the reasoning being that NFL and MLB fans don't watch games because they're fascinated by the ball.

I don't think current IMSA can wrap their heads around the fascination with the cars as opposed to fascination with drivers (a la Sprint Cup).

[Deleted]

In Grand-Am the main focus was always on drivers. And 'close racing' (literally how Rolex series was officially described when the merger buyout was happening). It is the NASCAR approach for sportscars and they keep banging that as their ideology as long as there are cars willing to race in the series. And that criteria is enough for them, it's been going for more than a decade. It's not like they ever listened to the fans in the previous era either.

[jasonjessica09]

Krohn Ligier just about confirmed for the 2015 NAEC. Nice little addition. Don't expect them to be a factor though in the races.

[joeb]

How about this for next year:
Check out @sportscar365's Tweet: https://twitter.com/sportscar365/sta...77361795268609

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by joeb

How about this for next year:
Check out @sportscar365's Tweet: https://twitter.com/sportscar365/sta...77361795268609

I think the Shank guys are just trying to get a good look at a 21st century race car, is all.

[ATLFalconsFAN]

Originally Posted by joeb

How about this for next year:
Check out @sportscar365's Tweet: https://twitter.com/sportscar365/sta...77361795268609

We'd never hear the end of it if Shank actually had to drop the coin on a new P2 car.

[MoMedic9019]

Looking at cars is an entirely different boat than actually buying and running it...