IMSA DPi Discussion

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Matt

Here's the thing, regardless of what anyone calls it, we all know what's being referred to, so there's no need for the continuous corrections.

So I may continue referring "DPi" as glued-OEM-body-P2, as we all know what that means

[Matt]

sure, if you feel like typing more than needed

[Adam43]

This is really showing the best of the posters here. As an observer of this thread I can see your are all desperately having an argument, yet none of you are saying anything interesting or relevant, or developing the discussion in any meaningful way.

Is that the level of intelligence here? Nitpicking and repetition rather than consideration and developing an idea.

Please start by trying to understand other poster's viewpoint rather than starting by trying to shoot them down.

That is why we get frustrations and only the same old tired views from the same old posters.

Other members are interested in real thoughts on this and new ideas from a community with a common interest in sportscars. They are not intereted in bickering.

[Maelochs]

Hey ... I'm not That old.

I am pretty tired though ....

[Adam43]

[TF110]

@Chiana- When I said there's an easy way forward, I wasn't saying P1-privateers is that easy way. Who knows what that easy way is officially. But it exists. It's called agreeing to one set of rules. But both parties don't seem to follow that logic because of ideologies.

@Maalochs- The DPi tech regs aren't finalized, no team has the complete ruleset. Doesn't look like future lmp1-privateer is either. So when you say that there's "no way a DPi could compete" I think that's a bit presumptuous .

What I have said in the past is they should align the two classes. Nissan wants to sell their GTR P1 engine as a possible privateer option. Reports are they want to use that same engine in DPi. How about the Mazda? That's not street derived like carbon_titanium was speaking of when discussing having to use the fuel flow meters. And the last we heard, privateer p1 guys don't like those flow meters because they're expensive.

As far as chassis' go, currently Rebellion use a car based off the lmp2 Oreca 05. And looky here http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/s...ateer-project/, Strakka speaking of the possibility of lmp1, but they speak about the teams wanting to keep their current chassis'

“Our business model was around carrying forward the Dome [S103] monocoque, so we have to look at what’s there,” Walmsley said. “And if you look at people like Rebellion and ByKolles, they all want to carry forward their monocoques.”

Bodes well for those that want to make that jump from a new p2 to p1. Something the organizers had hoped for as well.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

As far as chassis' go, currently Rebellion use a car based off the lmp2 Oreca 05. And looky here http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/s...ateer-project/, Strakka speaking of the possibility of lmp1, but they speak about the teams wanting to keep their current chassis' Bodes well for those that want to make that jump from a new p2 to p1. Something the organizers had hoped for as well.

The Oreca 05 is based on R-One(/04), not otherwise around.

I don't think the class transformation is as easy, and cheap as it may appear to some. The likes of Onroak would have otherwise already produced LMP1 version of the "Ligier", even if no-one was buying it (they are famous for running trial campaigns in hunt of customers)

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

The Oreca 05 is based on R-One(/04), not otherwise around.

I don't think the class transformation is as easy, and cheap as it may appear to some. The likes of Onroak would have otherwise already produced LMP1 version of the "Ligier", even if no-one was buying it (they are famous for running trial campaigns in hunt of customers)

So what? They share a likeness to eachother. No reason to get caught up on who appeared first. The fact stands, that Oreca can do a p2 and p1 car that are highly similar, and Strakka was planning to use the s103 for lmp1. I think it's safe to say teams can keep with familiar monocoques and go from there. How about that Lotus p2/CLM?

[hondafan37]

Riley expects 'up to five' DPi manufacturers for 2018
http://www.racer.com/imsa/weathertec...urers-for-2018

[Rcz]

We see indeed.

My guess it's mostly the old DP and P2 manufacturers.

1Nissan
2Honda
3Bmw
4Bently
5Audi

[TF110]

Mazda, GM (Caddy), Honda are all I see joining. Maybe Nissan but probably two no-name manufacturers running the wec spec new p2.

[Matt]

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/leman...t-24h-le-mans/

The ACO didn't want the Americans to show up in cooler cars and kick their asses, proving that their standard P2 rules are crap.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Matt

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/leman...t-24h-le-mans/

The ACO didn't want the Americans to show up in cooler cars and kick their asses, proving that their standard P2 rules are crap.

On the bright side, this idea that the DPi can fit into the LMP1-L category, is the one that should have been considered from the beginning, if they can actually make it competitive and cost effective.

[chernaudi]

And how many IMSA teams have made the trip to LM in the prototype ranks since Audi pulled out of the ALMS in 2008? You can probably count that on one hand. The writing was on the wall when the ACO mandated the spec engine, and IMSA insisted on body kits for cars using manufacturer supplied engines. Also, BOP'ing the two concepts to race together probably would've been a nightmare like it was with DP's vs LMP2s the past couple of years.

I'm sorry for those of you who hoped for a compromise, but when you have people as bullheaded as the ACO and the France Family butting heads, nothing good would come out of it.

Most teams from IMSA who would make the trip would probably just rent a car from another team to save themselves some money and logistical stuff, anyways.

DPI probably would be better suited to LMP1 privateer if the cars are reliable and some development was opened up. Hell, Rebellion's LMP1 car is a close relative for the Oreca 05/07 LMP2 cars, and can probably be fairly easily converted to IMSA DPI regs.

[Deleted]

Ultimately I don't care if they insist on forcing spec Zytek and spec chassis for LMP2 for everybody (because at least then we don't have to worry about "DPi" BoP crap and special treatments), but for gods sake Beaumesnil, stop it with the ill adviced P1 nonhybrid integration already, makes me loose my good mood on this otherwise great week

[August]

Unfortunate that the unified P2 didn't happen (except for LMP2 eligible in IMSA). I know there are differences between the classes in IMSA and ACO series but I think the requirements for the car are very similar. Both organizations wanted a limited number of chassis constructors.

Seems like the only difference in what each organization wanted was the engine; while IMSA wants to keep OEMs in the class, ACO doesn't. Had ACO allowed the OEM engines (and bodykits), it would've been simple: an IMSA team can enter LMP2 with a pro-am crew. But what I assume was the reason for ACO to not allow OEM engines in LMP2 is to force OEMs into LMP1 or GTE and not allow IMSA's top class with OEM involvement into Le Mans.

Well, this is not the end of the world. As long as there's an IMSA race for the P class just before the Le Mans test day, the occasional full-time IMSA team participating Le Mans is going do it with another car anyway. Maybe allowing the DPi's into LMP1-P might be a possibility as it's the next class above. Then again, I'm not sure if they would be competitive there. DPi will probably be in performance somewhere between P1-P and P2, if not only alongside P2.

[hondafan37]

Let's see: DPI to LMP1-P need:
* weight reduction for 70 Kg (900 to 830)
* new aero package
* new suspension for Michelin or Dunlop tires.
* fully modified engine to adapt to limit fuel consumption

They are a lot of modifications, this is not impossible but very difficult.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Let's see: DPI to LMP1-P need:
* weight reduction for 70 Kg (900 to 830)
* new aero package
* new suspension for Michelin or Dunlop tires.
* fully modified engine to adapt to limit fuel consumption

They are a lot of modifications, this is not impossible but very difficult.

It's frakking rubbish! P2 and DPi will already be BoPed against each other in IWSC and will have bench marks to calibrate from. ACO is screwing the pooch here!





L.P.

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

It's frakking rubbish! P2 and DPi will already be BoPed against each other in IWSC and will have bench marks to calibrate from. ACO is screwing the pooch here!

L.P.

I hope you aren't surprised by that, Horndawg.

This is the point where IMSA tells the ACO where to shove it. They shoulda done that a year ago if you ask me, but with them effectively being kicked out of Le Mans, it's high time IMSA grew a backbone and killed the DPi so that they can start over, preferably having absolutely nothing to do with the ACO or any of its prototype rules.

[TF110]

Fake outrage! Arggh! Manufacturer teams in lmp2 is a no-no. Go to lmp1 if you're a manufacturer. That's how I see it. DPi is yet to exist, so how is it balanced with lmp2? It's not. And as seen in IMSA, they bop everything anyway. So you want to run with a p1-private car? They'll let you as long as you play by their rules. ACO expects the same. DPi has manufacturer support and engines, but it's non-hybrid. Go to the private lmp1 class, then.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

I hope you aren't surprised by that, Horndawg.

This is the point where IMSA tells the ACO where to shove it. They shoulda done that a year ago if you ask me, but with them effectively being kicked out of Le Mans, it's high time IMSA grew a backbone and killed the DPi so that they can start over, preferably having absolutely nothing to do with the ACO or any of its prototype rules.

IMSA will not kill the DPi! It is exactly what they needed to upgrade the chassis. There may be need to loosen the engine to bodywork strictures for the pure privateers to run any engine in any chassis/bodywork combo. Make the Gibson powered chassis run with the PCs! Not truly surprised, but still highly disappointed.








L.P.

[Maelochs]

There is one reason the DPi exists: to keep manufacturers in North American prototype racing.

FIA doesn’t want manufacturers fighting it out in P2, which is a class for amateurs who want to help FIA pay for its events.

IMSA needs manufacturers in its top class for the same reason---to attract money to a class which could be a bunch of wealthy gentleman racers with limited fan followings. Ford vs. Chevy is much easier to sell (Chevy vs. Mazda less so, but ... ) Having manufacturers in the top class lends it weight and attracts advertising dollars.

Completely destroying DPi is not a good idea ... for I don’t know how many times I have explained this simple concept ... there is Not Enough of a Market for manufacturers to build prototype sports cars just for North America.

There are not enough teams to sell to, for more than one company to design, build, and support a prototype which is only used by four teams in one series on the entire planet.

The reason behind limiting P2 to four constructors was to ensure that the constructors could make money—and also so that the rare rich independent like SMP couldn’t totally scoff at the notion of cost-caps by building a one-off and taking advantage of unlimited spending while others tried to build a car on the cheap so as not to go broke.

With P2 chassis being eligible in AsLMS, ELMS, FIA, and IMSA there is some chance for constructors to stay in business, and have a level playing field.

Or, we could return to the glory days of ALMS when Muscle Milk and Dyson were the only teams in the top prototype class and Dyson was never in the running.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

There is one reason the DPi exists: to keep manufacturers in North American prototype racing.

FIA doesn’t want manufacturers fighting it out in P2, which is a class for amateurs who want to help FIA pay for its events.

IMSA needs manufacturers in its top class for the same reason---to attract money to a class which could be a bunch of wealthy gentleman racers with limited fan followings. Ford vs. Chevy is much easier to sell (Chevy vs. Mazda less so, but ... ) Having manufacturers in the top class lends it weight and attracts advertising dollars.

Completely destroying DPi is not a good idea ... for I don’t know how many times I have explained this simple concept ... there is Not Enough of a Market for manufacturers to build prototype sports cars just for North America.

There are not enough teams to sell to, for more than one company to design, build, and support a prototype which is only used by four teams in one series on the entire planet.

The reason behind limiting P2 to four constructors was to ensure that the constructors could make money—and also so that the rare rich independent like SMP couldn’t totally scoff at the notion of cost-caps by building a one-off and taking advantage of unlimited spending while others tried to build a car on the cheap so as not to go broke.

With P2 chassis being eligible in AsLMS, ELMS, FIA, and IMSA there is some chance for constructors to stay in business, and have a level playing field.

Or, we could return to the glory days of ALMS when Muscle Milk and Dyson were the only teams in the top prototype class and Dyson was never in the running.

Yep, but what goes into or onto the P2 'chassis' can easily be adjusted to fit IMSA's needs for DPi.








L.P.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

I hope you aren't surprised by that, Horndawg.

This is the point where IMSA tells the ACO where to shove it. They shoulda done that a year ago if you ask me, but with them effectively being kicked out of Le Mans, it's high time IMSA grew a backbone and killed the DPi so that they can start over, preferably having absolutely nothing to do with the ACO or any of its prototype rules.

Sounds like a great idea. We can call the new ones Daytona Prototypes and it'll be super popular.

ACO makes the Le Mans rules and LMP2 amateur drivers are too important to allow manufacturers in to dominate the class and leave them with nothing. If you want to play at Le Mans, there's already a P1 class for you. If you don't like that then you don't get to play. Simple enough.

[Rcz]

Good, now take the old P2 as your own IMSA and put GT3 engine in them. The old P2 cars were probably not going going to be all that different from the new cars anyway.

Now I wonder how many teams will take the Gibson option? Will it be reliable?

I think a GM 5.5 Liter engine could do well in P1 privateer class. Even with the fuel rules. Remember when we all though the DP teams were cheating when they were saving so much fuel? And there are quite reliable. The Honda engine was pretty good at Daytona and Sebring as well, so that another option.