USCC (leave your axe outside)

[DeezPutz]

Originally Posted by Gulf

Audi always (except once) comes and Porsche came the week before for testing... But you know facts don't matter when you have a theory to prove.

I don't think you know what theory means.

[Hendrix]

Originally Posted by Gulf

Audi always (except once) comes and Porsche came the week before for testing... But you know facts don't matter when you have a theory to prove.

It wouldn't make much sense for any of the manufacturers to put forth a full race effort when it's not even going to count towards the WEC. I also don't think it makes a series look good when an international team shows up and just laps the entire field for 12 hours.

P1 is a dead class when it comes to regional series', I think it's time anyone still griping about it sucks it up and gets over it.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by DeezPutz

I don't think you know what theory means.

I think you fail to understand the business aspect of racing.

[Maelochs]

I sdon't understand business, politics, reality, or theory ... so I fit in perfectly around here.

There isn't much reason for P1 cars to come to Sebring. Audi came a couple times (to race) but some fans didn't want them there anyway---once Peugeot and then WEC was gone Audi made everyone else look stupid, and not everybody liked that. After that Audi wasn't wanted.

TUSC has Zero reason to invite a class which is markedly faster than its own top class. People show up to Sebring even if there isn't a race. TUSC teams with sponsors paying extra to be on a race-winning car would get shafted, which means the teams and drivers would get shafted.

Some people might Think they understand the business of racing, but I would ask which team they run or which series they work for? Or is there some Nissan Academy for team owners?

I know for a fact TUSC didn't want P1 in 2014 and see no signs they want them any time after that--or ever. Scott Atherton mentioned a P2-type class as the top TUSC class for 2107---Not P1.

P1 is a factory class, and the factories apparently feel they sell enough in the U.S. that racing here twice doesn't make a difference.

Right now there is one privateer P1 team, and it is uncompetitive. Sooner or later Kolles could bring its P1 Adess/Lotus P1 ... good luck getting near the podium.

Where is all the business-related evidence that P1 is what TUSC needs?

[Rcz]

Think P1 racing in TUSC could work.

If could try this.

P1 only race in the NAEC

If TUSC can get at least 3 LMP1-H manufactures in a written agreement that they will run at least 2 or 3 NAEC races and bring at least 2 cars with them. P1 lights cars don't count.

Only the P1s would be the only cars from the WEC racing so no duplicated class would be racing in one race. Ect. So the GTE and GTLM won't be racing at the same time, confusing the fans, nor the protos with the P2s.

[Maelochs]

Right, but that means that at three of the biggest races, foreign teams take the top prizes and most of the press, which screws the TUSC regulars.

What is the upside? Sure, for a fan, we get to see P1s (outside of CotA.) But for the series, the teams ... and how do the P1 teams make money from this venture? They have to come overseas, set up shipping both air or sea, and land, and lodging, have to rent tools and transporters (or pay huge bucks to ship motorhomes overseas) and where does the income come from?

Sponsors might pay a little more for U.S. exposure---but if they wanted U.S. exposure wouldn't they already be looking at TUSC teams, or IndyCar, or NASCAR? And how many of the factories would want to pay to race in the U.S>? They have already said "No" to that. What would change their minds? TUSC's low ratings?

Basically, if we think like fans, we want to see the best cars in the world. if we actually had to pay for those cars, we'd want to make a profit.

Right now there is no financial benefit to P1 cars to race in the U.S.---and really no financial benefit for TUSC.

[Christian Mogami]

I hearing whispers of the 2016 TUSCC/ACO P2 will be a open chassis series.

2014 and newer P2 close top only

2016 DP carbon fiber tub and same weight as P2

SGT/DTM??? it looks like it might be aloud too(LM???)

Engines will produce around 600hp(150hp over the ACO spec P2 now)
They need to get them faster than the GT and closer to the P1
Mild hybrid(2mg) might be allowed

Pro series

[Rcz]

Sounds good, will it have ground effects as I said before, I hope so.

And will the new protos have a "bumper" rule like the current DP do? I don't mind if manufacturers want that, after all there are paying most of the bills.

[Maelochs]

Yes, it does sound good. I'd kind of prefer a set of regs which didn't have different rules for different chassis---would a SGT ior DTM chassis be competitive running the same specs as a purpose-built P2 chassis? If so ... wonderful let them all race.

Equivalency factors and performance balancing hasn't worked out so well in TUSC--I would think it would be something the series would want to avoid.

Otherwise, the more cars which can compete, the better. Ditch PC and have two dozen real Prototypes.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Atherton saying some interesting things on RLM--2017, combined series chassis, samne in all FIA series and TUSC, Not a spec chassis ... Hindy says "open formula," Atherton says "Not a spec chassis."

Where? MWM, LM show (hour?), pre-race?








L.P.

[Gulf]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

People show up to Sebring even if there isn't a race.
S

Not very many people showed up this year.

[Maelochs]

Maybe you didn't go on the right date ... I saw a pretty good crowd. Also, in 1974 when the race was cancelled, a pretty good crowd showed up.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Maybe you didn't go on the right date ... I saw a pretty good crowd. Also, in 1974 when the race was cancelled, a pretty good crowd showed up.

It wasn't as good as years prior, lots of open RV slots.

[Maelochs]

True enough. I know a lot of ALMS fans decided not go go because iot wasn't "the same" any more, and a lot of fans who were so disappointed by the BoP at Daytona the were not interested.

And still there was a healthy crowd. It wasn't packed and overfilled as it used to be but considering it was the first attempt by a much-maligned sanctioning body, there was still a healthy crowd. Hopefully TUSC will keep the quality of racing high through the rest fo the season, in which case I'd expect a bigger crowd.

Thing is, there were certainly enough people there to make money for the series. Enough to keep "Sebring 12 Hours" a very special event.

I am not sure how many people came last year---nor how many came in 1953 or 1956. Apparently enough.

The question was in part, would the inclusion of P1 cars bring in enough extra people to pay for the cost of bringing P1s across, and also screwing over all the TUSC teams and sponsors.

The other part of the question was whether TUSC could still make money on Sebring without P1s. I think that has been amply proven.

[Gulf]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

True enough. I know a lot of ALMS fans decided not go go because iot wasn't "the same" any more, and a lot of fans who were so disappointed by the BoP at Daytona the were not interested.

And still there was a healthy crowd. It wasn't packed and overfilled as it used to be but considering it was the first attempt by a much-maligned sanctioning body, there was still a healthy crowd. Hopefully TUSC will keep the quality of racing high through the rest fo the season, in which case I'd expect a bigger crowd.

Thing is, there were certainly enough people there to make money for the series. Enough to keep "Sebring 12 Hours" a very special event.

I am not sure how many people came last year---nor how many came in 1953 or 1956. Apparently enough.

The question was in part, would the inclusion of P1 cars bring in enough extra people to pay for the cost of bringing P1s across, and also screwing over all the TUSC teams and sponsors.

The other part of the question was whether TUSC could still make money on Sebring without P1s. I think that has been amply proven.

Well good enough really seems to be the series motto.

Keeping the "Sebring 12 Hours a very special event." has nothing to do with the size of the crowd and everything to do with the cars and keeping it a World event not a regional nascar race.

The last thing is since when are manufactures in P1 to make money? They would come just like they always have because of what was until this year the second most prestigious sportscar race in the world.

[Maelochs]

Um ... fact much? WEC rejected Sebring in 2013 in favor of CotA. Apparently even under ALMS it wasn't that big a deal.

As for P1 teams making money ... read the whole thread. Think about why teams race. I don't want to post everything two and three times.

The question remains: Why would P1 come to Sebring, and why would Sebring invite them?

Anyway, the whole discussion is moot. TUSC has no interest in P1 and TUSC owns the lease to Sebring.

[Gulf]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Um ... fact much? WEC rejected Sebring in 2013 in favor of CotA. Apparently even under ALMS it wasn't that big a deal.

Your right Audi never ran Sebring unless it was part of the WEC, they defiantly didn't run 2013

Originally Posted by Maelochs

The question remains: Why would P1 come to Sebring, and why would Sebring invite them?

Legitimacy, History, and Tradition. It would make tuscar like less of a joke, its not like their teams bring much to the table now.

[Matt]

Man, some of you guys must hate every other regional sportscar series in the world, because their top class is P2 as well.

[Hendrix]

Originally Posted by Gulf

They would come just like they always have because of what was until this year the second most prestigious sportscar race in the world.

I would say Sebring has been on a downward spin since 2009, which was the last year more than one factory team showed and didn't just use the race as a last hurrah for the previous years chassis.

I understand the want to see Audi, Porsche, Toyota and Nissan duking it out in the U.S. outside of the 1 WEC race (I share the same wish). But the reality is the even if it were allowed I doubt the teams would want to divert resources away from their efforts in the WEC to do one-off races in the U.S. (especially now that there is some actual competition)

Let me put it this way, if you were running the Porsche team, what would you rather spend $100,000 on, winning some race that doesn't mean anything(in terms of winning the WEC) using last years car, or using it on a development for the current one that could help you win Le Mans?

[Gulf]

Originally Posted by Hendrix

Let me put it this way, if you were running the Porsche team, what would you rather spend $100,000 on, winning some race that doesn't mean anything(in terms of winning the WEC) using last years car, or using it on a development for the current one that could help you win Le Mans?

I absolutely do. Audi has done that every year and they seem to know what they are doing.

[Hendrix]

Originally Posted by Gulf

I absolutely do. Audi has done that every year and they seem to know what they are doing.

They also haven't had much for competition until recently so they could afford to divert some funds. Currently though it looks like Toyota finally has it together winning the first two races of the season, Porsche will likely do everything in their power to catch up as fast as possible and Nissan is jumping aboard as well.

Let's just look at the last time Audi faced some serious competition.

2009 - Peugeot wins Le Mans
2010 - Audi skips Sebring

It was a part of the ILMC and WEC in 2011 and 2012 so there was a reason for them to appear.

[Gulf]

Originally Posted by Hendrix

They also haven't had much for competition until recently so they could afford to divert some funds. Currently though it looks like Toyota finally has it together winning the first two races of the season, Porsche will likely do everything in their power to catch up as fast as possible and Nissan is jumping aboard as well.

Let's just look at the last time Audi faced some serious competition.

2009 - Peugeot wins Le Mans
2010 - Audi skips Sebring

It was a part of the ILMC and WEC in 2011 and 2012 so there was a reason for them to appear.

One time since 1999 really proves your point.

[Hendrix]

Originally Posted by Gulf

One time since 1999 really proves your point.

You obviously haven't really been paying attention as I said it stopped being relevant after 2009, before that was a completely different story.

[Gulf]

Originally Posted by Hendrix

You obviously haven't really been paying attention as I said it stopped being relevant after 2009, before that was a completely different story.

Theres a real race on tv right now so I'm half paying attention but tell me again how being the 1st round of the WEC wasn't relevant?

Either way it doesn't matter nascar is happy running crap so thats whats going to happen until tuscar dies, hopefully soon.

[Maelochs]

I am with Mr. Hendrix. If we want tio suggest plans for businesses, we need to think like businesspeople. If we think like fans, we suggest stuff which might not work in terms of business.

My idea is sort of, once sports car racing in North America is profitable as a business, a lot more options appear. We have every reason to believe that TUSC 2017 will be a lot better than TUSC today---assuming TUSC is still doing business in 2017.

If it should last until FIA/WEC comes out with new regs in 20120 or 2021 ... maybe by then TUSC and North American business will be able to afford the whole FIA/WEC program, P1 on down.

Right now North American sports car racing simply does not generate enough income to survive. That's why we have TUSC. That's why Audi left. There was no Return on Investment for factories or sponsors, there was no sponsor money for teams to build, buy, or develop their cars ...

A few rich amateurs cannot support a top-tier racing series. The series has to make sense in business terms---even privateer teams need to make back whatever they spend.

Highcroft, Fernandez Racing, Gainsco, and now Muscle Milk/Pickett Racing have bailed---not because they don't want to race, but because they don't want to go broke racing, or pay to race, or because the board members said "No more cash for racing if it gains us no return." Same thing Audi said to Audi North America.

If we think teams, factories, whoever race for "prestige" and "tradition" then it makes sense for teams and factories to go broke racing for our entertainment, and to expect an endless stream of suckers who will spend their fortunes racing until they too go broke.

If we refuse to identify the real issues we don't have much chance of solving them.