|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
21 Jun 2016, 00:25 (Ref:3654008) | #7176 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 825
|
Don't take me wrong, I'm not bitter about it or anything but Porsche fluked into this and, imho, their performance was quite disapointing and underwhelming.
I was expecting more reliability(the problem with the #1 was embarassing) and more pace from them. They were 3s slower than last year and that's looking into ideal laps as on actual laps it was more like 4s. Taking the -10MJ into account, the car barely improved. At best, it was just a few tenths faster if you factor in the 3.5-4s of the -10MJ. Toyota was the only car with the performance that I expected from it. The other two teams I(and Toyota tech staff too) expected to be lapping at least 1s faster than what Toyota was "Cars will be faster again this year", "they will do 3.15", "they'll be as fast, or almost, as last year" all this kind of claims proved to be a huge joke, really! The most conservative predictions here, that I can remember of, were from GasperG and I and we were expecting times close to 3.20.0 and even we were far from their true pace. Last edited by Artur; 21 Jun 2016 at 00:33. |
|
|
21 Jun 2016, 00:53 (Ref:3654015) | #7177 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,149
|
Don't mean to get into semantics, but Porsche didnt' steal this race from Toyota. Toyota had the fastest most trouble free car over the race and could run an extra lap on fuel. They were hard done. Porsche winning was a formality....
|
|
|
21 Jun 2016, 01:02 (Ref:3654017) | #7178 | |
Registered User
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 10,744
|
Goodwin said "Porsche didn't win it, Toyota lost it".
I disagree. It's 100% won if you engineer a car that can last 100% of the way and do it first. Toyota lost it all right by not achieving that, but that doesn't make Porsche's win less deserved. It was the destiny of Porsche to win it. As for the 'glassy'/non-glassy acting from the Porsche guys, it's refreshing to see real emotions from the teams upon winning the biggest race on Earth, rather than boring corporate responses. And they acted as gentlemen later anyway. ACO cameramen are less glassy in zooming into tears of despair though... |
|
|
21 Jun 2016, 01:21 (Ref:3654027) | #7179 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,567
|
Think you took my comment too literal.
|
|
|
21 Jun 2016, 01:58 (Ref:3654039) | #7180 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 6,232
|
Quote:
|
||
|
21 Jun 2016, 04:35 (Ref:3654059) | #7181 | ||||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,642
|
Quote:
Quote:
Sent from my XT1092 using Tapatalk |
||||
|
21 Jun 2016, 04:43 (Ref:3654060) | #7182 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,642
|
Quote:
Objectively there is no difference between breaking down 6:50 before the end and having a water pump break during the night when you are the fastest car and in the lead. The difference is only in the subjective expectations that we make for each event. Sent from my XT1092 using Tapatalk |
|||
|
21 Jun 2016, 05:31 (Ref:3654067) | #7183 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,642
|
Quote:
If you look at laps under 3:30.(thus eliminating slow zones, yellows, SC's etc) you will find that Porsche #1 did 244 laps under 3:30 with an average lap time of 2:25.6. Porsche # 2 did 266 laps under the 3:30 mark with an average lap time of 3:25.7. # 5 Toyota did 261 laps under the 3:30 mark with an average lap time of 3:25.9 and car #6 did 243 laps under 3:30 with an average lap time of 3:26.4 Also: Ideal lap times: Car #1 = 3:20.612 Car #2 = 3:21.008 Car#5 = 3:21.287 Car#6 = 3:20.831 Last edited by Spyderman; 21 Jun 2016 at 05:40. |
|||
|
21 Jun 2016, 06:12 (Ref:3654074) | #7184 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,642
|
You are right. Dumas drove 103 laps whilst Jani drove for 145 laps and Lieb drove for 136 laps.
What is quite strange is that he was substantially slower that both Lieb and Jani. Looking at laps under 3:30.0 (eliminating slow zones, SC, yellow flags, etc), Dumas did an average lap time of 3:26.5 whilst both Lieb and Jani did an average lap time of 3:25.4 (They both had the fastest times in the entire Porsche squad) |
||
|
21 Jun 2016, 10:21 (Ref:3654113) | #7185 | |||
Race Official
20KPINAL
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,753
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
21 Jun 2016, 10:49 (Ref:3654122) | #7186 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,642
|
If the # 1 car had not had a problem, maybe Toyota would not have been in a position to win.
If ,if, if... |
||
|
21 Jun 2016, 11:20 (Ref:3654132) | #7187 | ||
Race Official
20KPINAL
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,753
|
|||
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
21 Jun 2016, 15:26 (Ref:3654200) | #7188 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,692
|
To finish first, first you have to finish, although it was bad luck that the last lap was one lap too many for Toyota. Porsche deserve it though
|
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
21 Jun 2016, 16:24 (Ref:3654226) | #7189 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,642
|
Some interesting numbers:http://www.endurance-info.com/en/por...-on-the-limit/
|
||
|
21 Jun 2016, 23:06 (Ref:3654325) | #7190 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 825
|
Quote:
Got butthurt with my comments?! Don't let fanboyism get the best of you The estimations I posted(3.5 to 4s impact of -10MJ, at LM) came directly from predictions made by engineers of your team, NOT MY OWN. My disapointment with the laptimes is my emotion, but the poor performance of the cars(meaning slow and unreliable including the #1) is pretty much a fact, not a subjective perception. In a way I'm slightly surprised with this. I had you as a more critical and reasonable fan rather than such a passionate one. I saw your prediction, on the appropriate thread, and it was a pole of 3.17.4 for Audi. Mine was a 3.18.2 by Porsche, so my subjective perception worked far better there but still didn't match the actual rather poor performance displayed by the cars But then, please, continue to contradict yourself and claim that the cars were not slow(and unreliable) and that is only my subjective perception. Quote:
When you're ultra passionate about something, it's very easy to think that you're the only one that sees things objectively while everybody else has weak opinions , when it's actually the opposite, obviously. |
|||
|
22 Jun 2016, 02:54 (Ref:3654342) | #7191 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,642
|
Quote:
Sent from my XT1092 using Tapatalk Last edited by Spyderman; 22 Jun 2016 at 03:10. |
|||
|
22 Jun 2016, 03:31 (Ref:3654347) | #7192 | |||||||||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,642
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Thank you for this pearl of wisdom. I'll learn and grow from it. |
|||||||||
|
22 Jun 2016, 05:19 (Ref:3654356) | #7193 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,567
|
Best not to even bother replying to Arthur. He seems so disappointed with the lap times yet he still watches. It's not worth an argument. Porsche won. So what if they weren't as fast as last year. The race was great, up until the last half hour there was no clear favorite. And then in the last 5 minutes, Porsche took the win.
|
|
|
22 Jun 2016, 05:32 (Ref:3654359) | #7194 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,642
|
Quote:
BTW - You know that I had Toyota as firm favorites (see the Toyota Thread) and I always thought they would do well. What happened to them was very, very unfortunate and I think it is clear that they have all the respect in the world from their competition and fans around the world. Oh! - What I was surprised by was Audi's performance, but then again I think Audi themselves were surprised by it too. I'm sure that it is only a temporary setback and they will sort their car out soon. I also think that their car will work far better in the shorter tracks and shorter races, so the rest of the season promises to be explosive. My one concern is that I think the motivation levels of the #1 Porsche will be ...not as high as we would want it to be. Last edited by Spyderman; 22 Jun 2016 at 05:38. |
|||
|
22 Jun 2016, 05:37 (Ref:3654361) | #7195 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,567
|
The amount of publicity they garnered from that last lap is amazing. I don't know if the bigger story is Porsche winning, or Toyota losing on the last lap. But there was and still is serious attention and a lot of talking about this race. It was an automatic classic.
|
|
|
22 Jun 2016, 11:19 (Ref:3654401) | #7196 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,884
|
The behaviour of all three manufacturers this year has been incredible - and it makes me think that Peugeot pulling out maybe wasn't such a bad thing overall.
In all the fuss of the race though, it's easy to forget that the #2 Porsche carried out quite a rare feat at Le Mans this year - it converted a pole position into a win. |
||
|
22 Jun 2016, 14:39 (Ref:3654453) | #7197 | |
Registered User
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 10,744
|
||
|
22 Jun 2016, 15:06 (Ref:3654465) | #7198 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 972
|
i think the "not winning on merit" comments are absolutely unfair. especially about porsche this year. setting the fastest lap of the race with 60 cars on track seems to be significantly harder (you can also tell by the big difference between fastest lap per car vs. ideal lap per car), but in terms of average times, as well as ideal lap, which shows the true potential of the car, porsche have it over toyota. so i think it's fair to say porsche was the fastest car in this race - by a very small margin, but it was. anyway, it desn't matter if it's the fastest or not. it matters if it's the fastest to last the distance.
ultimately, i really believe there is no such thing as not winning on pure merit, unless you win it behind closed doors with the rule makers, which is a whole different type of story. again: this is ENDURANCE racing. that means a very simple thing: the fastest car to last the distance is the winner and, in doing so, it's got all the merit. if you last 23h57min, you do not deserve to win, because others last for 24h. if the porsche would have broken down too, audi, although 12 laps behind and having an awful performance, would deserve the win. they would win it on merit. |
|
|
22 Jun 2016, 17:08 (Ref:3654488) | #7199 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,926
|
My feeling is that Porsche did luck into the win because the #2 didn't have the performance to keep up with the #5 Toyota. However, this was a 24 hour race, not a 23 hr 56 minute race (ironically, a day is actually 23 hr 56 minutes, but 24 hours is easier to keep record of, and it's also why we have leap year every 4 years). Luck and fate always have something to do with who wins and who doesn't. That's the "what if" factor.
What if the #1 didn't have engine problems? What if the #6 didn't spin and have to spend time in the pits for bodywork repairs? What if the #6 didn't bang into the Aston Martin GTE-Am car that caused the body damage in the first place? What if, what if, what if. You can have the fastest car, but in the end, it matters little if you can't finish the race or lose too much time and track position because of problems, minor or major. You can test and test and have no problems, but all three factory teams in LMP1 showed, you can't control fate and luck, and those two factors will do whatever they want, when they want. That's why it's never really over until the final lap is completed, and even then, that's not always 100% the case. |
||
|
22 Jun 2016, 17:35 (Ref:3654493) | #7200 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,642
|
Quote:
If we look at the data, we find that the #2 did 12 laps under 3:23.0 whilst the #5 managed 3 laps below the same mark. If we look at laps 3:30 and below, you will find that the #2 did 266 laps with an average time of 3:25.7. The # 5 did 261 laps with an average of 3:25.9. As you can see from the data, the Porsche was faster when the cars were going fast. They lost time with the pit stops (about 1.5 minutes more in relation to the #5) and also when going through the slow zones. BTW- The fastest car by far, was the #1. Last edited by Spyderman; 22 Jun 2016 at 17:44. |
|||
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
[WEC] The Unified Power Rankings (GTP / Hypercar) | GT3_Fan | ACO Regulated Series | 123 | 28 Aug 2024 10:26 |
Cadillac GTP / Hypercar: Fan favorite | Adam43 | North American Racing | 68 | 22 Aug 2024 08:10 |
Lamborghini GTP / Hypercar: weigh in | veeten | North American Racing | 77 | 21 Jun 2024 12:59 |
Are there any differnces between a Porsche carerra cup Porsche and GT3 class Porsche? | SALEEN S7R | Sportscar & GT Racing | 25 | 6 Feb 2008 21:06 |
Joest Porsche VS Factory Porsche | H16 | Sportscar & GT Racing | 10 | 20 Dec 2001 14:07 |