[BTCC] BTCC 2020 season discussion, News and Rumours!

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Quite a farcical situation by both the government and MSV. Quite why this kind of event is deemed to be “unsafe” yet Alton Towers is open is beyond comprehension. So a theme park where there is much common touching of surfaces and potential for bunching, is deemed safe, yet an event where people can spread out on grass and never be near one another is unsafe, boggles the mind.

It is yet more evidence, not that's it needed, that this country is run by morons. Boris Johnson is utterly reliant on Dominic Cummins brain cells, and DC is never going to be winning Mastermind - though compared with the elected cretins he has more brains than all of them added together.

"Science" - poppycock. A neat way of saying "not us Guv'nor."

As for BTCC - I'd decided to avoid, for personal reasons rather than fear of a damn virus - I'm more likely to be squashed by a shiny new hybrid electric #40 bus that manages to sneak up behind me.

You could relatively easily put 1 or 2 thousand people into Donington and Silverstone - and others though I'm not clear enough in my head about entry/ exit pinch points - and keep them apart.

This virus malarkey is here to stay: I personally believe the Swedes have made by far the best of it. If the British Government is not prepared to U-turn and follow the Swedes then it should go full on opposite and stop pussy footing around: close borders immediately, zero repatriation, close all premises were people can mingle and enforce stay at home for several months. The BS science that the virus enters the host and goes live in a week or two is precisely that - BS. It has demonstrated far longer incubation periods - otherwise we wouldn't be having infections continue unabated from about 3 weeks after lockdown... I make it nearly 3 months since lickdown.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by RS67

Neither the government, nor MSV are at fault, there have been increases in covid cases over the last few days. Other countries are experiencing similar. With second waves expected, measures have to be taken to control that. I daresay someone has taken a look at spectator figures for BTCC events and decided that number is way to high and poses a risk, compared to other motorsport events which have much lower attendances.

MSV really were at fault.

The rules relating spectators at sporting events were quite clear, and they chose to try and get around those rules using a loophole that existed for very different reasons.

And they did so against the wishes of the MSA, and I believe without the agreement of TOCA.

As for the people claiming it will be fine because Jonathan Palmer is a doctor, well he went to medical school and got a degree 40 years ago, but other than the clinical work necessary to graduate, he's never practised medicine. He was far too busy winning the Formula 2 title, and testing for Williams.

Virology has moved on massively since the early 80s. Palmer won't have any better idea than you or I about contemporary methods of pandemic control.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

It is yet more evidence, not that's it needed, that this country is run by morons.

Not really, government rules on sports haven’t changed in many months.

MSV thought they could circumvent them and got caught out. Very poor management although doubtless boosted their cash flow, cough, cough.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by sceptic

MSV really were at fault.

The rules relating spectators at sporting events were quite clear, and they chose to try and get around those rules using a loophole that existed for very different reasons.

And yet MSV are still able to hold sporting events. The only difference with BTCC as I said before is the number of spectators that it attracts. If you read MSV's press release on the closure, they have adhered to all governance which has allowed them to hold racing, testing and track day events. It is only this latest classification of BTCC being an elite sport and can only be down to the number of spectators it attracts, that has meant spectators are now excluded from the events for the time being.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

You could relatively easily put 1 or 2 thousand people into Donington and Silverstone - and others though I'm not clear enough in my head about entry/ exit pinch points - and keep them apart.

And tracks have been doing that over the last few weeks, but when you have an event that attracts 10 to 15 times that many spectators, it makes it harder to seperate people and there is a much higher probability of haveing one or more infected person in a crowd of 20-30k than just 2k.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by RS67

And tracks have been doing that over the last few weeks, but when you have an event that attracts 10 to 15 times that many spectators, it makes it harder to seperate people and there is a much higher probability of haveing one or more infected person in a crowd of 20-30k than just 2k.

Given that it was pre-booked tickets only MSV have (had) the power to control how many people had access - a 'normal' BTCC meeting might see 30k people but MSV could restrict it to 2K if they wanted. I don't know what limit they had set for BTCC but I hadn't seen anything about events selling out so I assume the limit was quite high. I'd already decided to give BTCC a miss this season for that very reason.

I suspect that series that have been bigging themselves up as 'top level motorsport' are now probably scrambling around claiming they're very much amateur in a bid to dodge the 'Elite' tag.

[medius]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Given that it was pre-booked tickets only MSV have (had) the power to control how many people had access - a 'normal' BTCC meeting might see 30k people but MSV could restrict it to 2K if they wanted. I don't know what limit they had set for BTCC but I hadn't seen anything about events selling out so I assume the limit was quite high. I'd already decided to give BTCC a miss this season for that very reason.

Limiting to 2k might have worked if ticket sales weren't already considerably north of 12k last Friday morning and significantly spiked again over the weekend after all the club meetings going ahead successfully on MSV property. Essentially that genie was already out of the uncorked bottle. MSV thought the numbers were manageable, they sought clarification and provided their own evidence for their case but were denied.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Given that it was pre-booked tickets only MSV have (had) the power to control how many people had access - a 'normal' BTCC meeting might see 30k people but MSV could restrict it to 2K if they wanted.

Season ticket holders and local residents could already surpass that number.

[peebee2]

It’s not just the number of people, it’s the diverse geographical spread they will come from.

[redshoes]

It doesn't matter how much MSV limit ticket sales; being an Elite Sport is not about number of spectators or TV coverage. There are Elite Sport events that get no TV coverage, minimal media coverage, and very few spectators.

One of the definitions of being an Elite Athlete is that you 'derives a living from competing in a sport'. Ask all the BTCC drivers what they put down when asked their occupation when applying for car insurance or filling out a visa application form. A few may be 'company director' or similar, but a good number will put down 'racing driver'.

That doesn't mean that they are paid directly by the team, but they are deriving a living from that, albeit often indirectly. A lot of BTCC fans don't understand that drivers, so why would we expect a govt civil servant with no interest in the series to know differently.

Club meeting are an entirely different matter. No-one there identifies as a professional racing driver, so there was never any chance of that being considered Elite.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Club meeting are an entirely different matter. No-one there identifies as a professional racing driver, so there was never any chance of that being considered Elite.

really?

I suspect there are a fair few professional drivers who co drive at historic meetings......only last week Alex Brundle was meant to be at Donington at the Masters meeting….

...the lines between club/ elite sport can get very blurred

[VIVA GT]

I honestly feel that one of the biggest problems with society today is that everyone has to have this clearly defined, very few people seem to possess what was called common sense when I was a lad. This means that when generalised rulings are put into place (and done so hurriedly for a very good reason) if you look hard enough you can pick an argument why some things are right and some things are wrong (in your opinion). I wasn't expecting spectators (or day visitors if you prefer) to be allowed into the first BTCC meetings and was surprised when MSV announced that they would. I expected MSUK, TOCA and everyone else involved with the organisation of the event to have their hands full enough dealing with the large number of people who have to be there for the event to run in the first place. Dealing with this number of people could be treated as a practice and allow them to fine-tune the procedures, and once they were on top of that, then it would be the time to allow the public in too because everyone would understand a lot more about how it is best to deal with such a thing.
I do (honestly) feel very sorry for all of the people who has planned to visit Donington this weekend so that they could finally see the BTCC in action live and now, at the last minute have found out that they are not welcome after all. Sadly I feel that it is MSV who have created this problem, by blindly going against the advice of the governing body, and it is really they who have ended up with egg on their faces. Things are changing on a daily basis as we learn more about this damned virus, at least these spectators cans still watch the racing on TV which is nearly as good...

[RS67]

Originally Posted by redshoes

It doesn't matter how much MSV limit ticket sales; being an Elite Sport is not about number of spectators or TV coverage. There are Elite Sport events that get no TV coverage, minimal media coverage, and very few spectators.

One of the definitions of being an Elite Athlete is that you 'derives a living from competing in a sport'. Ask all the BTCC drivers what they put down when asked their occupation when applying for car insurance or filling out a visa application form. A few may be 'company director' or similar, but a good number will put down 'racing driver'.

That doesn't mean that they are paid directly by the team, but they are deriving a living from that, albeit often indirectly. A lot of BTCC fans don't understand that drivers, so why would we expect a govt civil servant with no interest in the series to know differently.

Club meeting are an entirely different matter. No-one there identifies as a professional racing driver, so there was never any chance of that being considered Elite.

Unless they want to burn money, only full time race drivers are going to put down racing driver as main source of income. It's a part time job at best for most of them.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I honestly feel that one of the biggest problems with society today is that everyone has to have this clearly defined, very few people seem to possess what was called common sense when I was a lad. This means that when generalised rulings are put into place (and done so hurriedly for a very good reason) if you look hard enough you can pick an argument why some things are right and some things are wrong (in your opinion). I wasn't expecting spectators (or day visitors if you prefer) to be allowed into the first BTCC meetings and was surprised when MSV announced that they would. I expected MSUK, TOCA and everyone else involved with the organisation of the event to have their hands full enough dealing with the large number of people who have to be there for the event to run in the first place. Dealing with this number of people could be treated as a practice and allow them to fine-tune the procedures, and once they were on top of that, then it would be the time to allow the public in too because everyone would understand a lot more about how it is best to deal with such a thing.
I do (honestly) feel very sorry for all of the people who has planned to visit Donington this weekend so that they could finally see the BTCC in action live and now, at the last minute have found out that they are not welcome after all. Sadly I feel that it is MSV who have created this problem, by blindly going against the advice of the governing body, and it is really they who have ended up with egg on their faces. Things are changing on a daily basis as we learn more about this damned virus, at least these spectators cans still watch the racing on TV which is nearly as good...

But they haven't gone blindly against the governing body. They have held several race meetings already without a problem being raised by anyone. The BTCC not being allowed spectators should have been decided earlier, it's not the fault of MSV, they haven't exactly hidden the fact that they intended to welcome visitors (spectators).

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by RS67

Unless they want to burn money, only full time race drivers are going to put down racing driver as main source of income. It's a part time job at best for most of them.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...62772/officers

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...98678/officers

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...94160/officers

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...15314/officers

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by redshoes

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...62772/officers

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...98678/officers

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...94160/officers

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...15314/officers

well. Jason has a nice pad

https://www.onthemarket.com/details/7580466/

[thetool]

Originally Posted by redshoes

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...62772/officers

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...98678/officers

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...94160/officers

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...15314/officers

Do bear in mind there are no legal obligations about how that field should be filled on the companies house filings. You can even leave it blank.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by redshoes

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...62772/officers

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...98678/officers

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...94160/officers

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...15314/officers

Plus Stephen Jelley..
And also there are the likes of Dan Cammish, Andy Jordan, Matt Neal, who are listed as Directors of Companies whose main revenue stream is Motorsport.

It may not be their only source of income, but it would be fairly easy to see they receive some form of remuneration from taking part in BTCC - reinforcing the 'Elite' status.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

well. Jason has a nice pad

https://www.onthemarket.com/details/7580466/

https://www.metro.news/property-vroo...-view/1279966/

IIRC, he moved from there a short while ago - hence it being on the market....

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by thetool

Do bear in mind there are no legal obligations about how that field should be filled on the companies house filings. You can even leave it blank.

That's true, but when asked for an occupation they fill in 'race car driver', don't be surprised if they are then get treated as professional sportsmen.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by redshoes

That's true, but when asked for an occupation they fill in 'race car driver', don't be surprised if they are then get treated as professional sportsmen.

I'm also pretty sure that a lot of drivers have courted potential sponsors with a full assertion of the elite nature of the BTCC, and associated 'professionalism' of the series. Can you imagine the same drivers now having to phone up sponsors to explain why they would prefer to be seen as amateurs so that they can have someone cheer them on in the crowd?

Max Coates - 'The BTCC is one of the UK’s top sporting attractions outright with crowd numbers that go toe-to-toe with some of those seen in football’s Premier League. ' 'Each event has a real sense of occasion and offers your guests the chance to learn about the inner workings of a professional Motorsport team.'

Jack Goff - 'In 2009 at only 18 Jack began his first year as a professional racing driver'

Jonathan Palmer - 'BTCC is simply Britain’s biggest and most important national car racing championship,” says Jonathan Palmer, Chief Executive of MotorSport Vision.'


Maybe the series' tagline should be "We're not really elite, we just say we are"

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by RS67

But they haven't gone blindly against the governing body.

The MSA specifically said that spectators should not be allowed at race meetings.
So, yes. MSV have gone against the governing body.

The BTCC not being allowed spectators should have been decided earlier

It was decided earlier. It was decided when the UK went into lockdown. The rule imposed then has never been lifted.

, it's not the fault of MSV, they haven't exactly hidden the fact that they intended to welcome visitors (spectators).

It's absolutely their fault. They are the people responsible for the event.

They put the tickets on sale when they were told not to.

They, and they alone, have been marketing it.

Notice how the BTCC hasn't been mentioning spectators on its web site or social media. Not even a retweet.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by sceptic

Notice how the BTCC hasn't been mentioning spectators on its web site or social media. Not even a retweet.

And, every time Gow has been asked about fans, his response has always been that the admission of spectators is a matter for the circuit organisers and the Government. They (TOCA) will comply with whatever the Government advises when it comes to the paddock areas.

[touringlegend]

The Scottish Govt has updated their route map today. It says this

With effect from Monday 24th August
Live events (outdoors) with physical distancing, enhanced hygiene and restricted numbers following relevant guidance

I wonder if the Knockhill event less than 7 days after this comes into effect could run with spectators?

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

With effect from Monday 24th August
Live events (outdoors) with physical distancing, enhanced hygiene and restricted numbers following relevant guidance

I think you should have quoted the next line instead

Organised outdoor contact sports can resume

I can't find any updates on the timeline for professional sport. Depends if they are treating that the same as other outdoor live events.