The Porsche vs Ferrari (or Badger vs brielga) thread

[arakis]

God I miss the 360 vs 996 era as well as the begging of the 430 vs 997 those were the days as they say...

[Dario911]

The most impressive thing about Porsche race, has been reliability. The car has run flawless all 24 hours, on the contrary of the old 997. At its first Le Mans appointment, new 991 has been fast, but more of all reliable as 997 has never been. No to bad for a brand new car.
In the previous races Porsche has hidden its real performances, so it was as fast as its rivals, and new BoP has helped it in Le Mans to be further faster.
Even without BoP, I think Porsche would have had a real chance to win in Le Mans: absolute reliability, great pace, no mistakes in the boxes and from the drivers.
If Ferrari, Porsche, Aston, and Corvette had the same pace, Porsche maybe it would have won anyway, due to its reliability, and perfect management od the race.
Ferrari has lost its race not only for the lack of speed, but for the several mistakes at the boxes, of his drivers, and for some reliability issues.
Anyway, it's finally time to have three contenders on the same plain, without any favoritism!
ACO have to slow Aston and Porsche, to make them on the same plan of Ferrari. You cannot mortify a manufacturer giving so much advantage to an opponent.
We all are talking about Porsche speed, but we don't have to forget the Aston has proven to be one second faster than 911!
GTE's pace must be as close as possible.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Dario911

Ferrari has lost its race not only for the lack of speed, but for the several mistakes at the boxes, of his drivers, and for some reliability issues.

This is an incorrect statement as you are not taking into account that the Ferrari was running at it's edge trying to keep up, while the Astons and Porshces could just run their race...

When you have less horespower, downforce, and fuell you have to run your cars at the edge, and this is where mistakes happen... In other words there is no way of knowing how porches race would have been if they had to fight against 2 AStons, 2 Ferraris, and 2 Corrvettes, insted of youst the Astons..

When you have a car that is 2s slower you have to take risks which you don't take when you have a faster car.

[Spyderman]

Yes, I seem to recall Porsche was in a similar position the last couple of years.

[zanfo zanfagni]

yes, let's say that porsche was able to have a good pace for the win only in 2009. 2010, 2011 and 2012 was terribly slow (even if porsche won in 2010 because of risi competizione and corvette issues) for sure had not the pace and performance to obtain the class win. More or less this year was the same situation for 458 and af corse.

[arakis]

please don't misunderstand my comments to mean that I thing Porsche should't have won.. They more then desereved the win, and I am happy for them...

*My comments are directed ant the FIA/ACO inability to maintain order...

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by arakis

please don't misunderstand my comments to mean that I thing Porsche should't have won.. They more then desereved the win, and I am happy for them...

*My comments are directed ant the FIA/ACO inability to maintain order...

No, I understand what you say!
But some issues for Ferrari come from Malucelli, and some bad things done in the pit lane. Ferrari has raced on the edge, at the same way Porsche has done in the last years. And this can be the cause of a lot of troubles.
I would have preferred to have Bruni/Fisichella/Vilander on the same car, instead of Malucelli. Vilander is fast and more reliable, this would have done the difference.
But Porsche, don't considering its pace, has been perfect in all other areas, in confront of the faster Aston Martin, too. Aston was favorite more than all the rest, but Porsche despite it was slower, has won the race.
Le Mans is more than the mere sum of all its parts. To win, you must have all... and a bit more.
Now it's time to think to another way to balance car, without mortifications.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by zanfo zanfagni

Agree 1245kg for everyone and same restrictors for same displacement engines. The best car and team win, the worst ones lose.

I agree with all this except lose the restrictors and BoP with fuel flow similar to the new P1 rules.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by arakis

When you have a car that is 2s slower you have to take risks which you don't take when you have a faster car.

Le Mans is not a sprint race. A 24 hours long race must be managed. Ferrari lost in 2010 because it started from the last place of the grid, and raced as if the race was a 10 hours race, and not a 24 hours!
If they had managed better the car and the race, they could win.
Porsche was 2" slower, but was reliable and lucky, and had a perfect race. When the front runners was forced to leave the race, Porsche was just behind them inheriting the first place and winning the race.
The same was in Spa, when Porsche won with the slowest (and less helped by manufacturer) car, beating works BMWs and AF Ferraris.
Endurance is very complex, and cannot be reduced to a mere question of laptimes.
This year, Corvette was clearly slower than Ferrari, but has done its race, far from mistakes, and has achieved an unexpected 4th place.
But strategy and luck often go together...

[Victor_RO]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=UotNe4FbkcQ

Porsche's brief recap video of the race.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=UotNe4FbkcQ

Porsche's brief recap video of the race.

A video which should put the thread into a bit of perspective.

A touch of class from Porsche there.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Dario911

Le Mans is not a sprint race. A 24 hours long race must be managed. Ferrari lost in 2010 because it started from the last place of the grid, and raced as if the race was a 10 hours race, and not a 24 hours!
If they had managed better the car and the race, they could win.
Porsche was 2" slower, but was reliable and lucky, and had a perfect race. When the front runners was forced to leave the race, Porsche was just behind them inheriting the first place and winning the race.
The same was in Spa, when Porsche won with the slowest (and less helped by manufacturer) car, beating works BMWs and AF Ferraris.
Endurance is very complex, and cannot be reduced to a mere question of laptimes.
This year, Corvette was clearly slower than Ferrari, but has done its race, far from mistakes, and has achieved an unexpected 4th place.
But strategy and luck often go together...

While it is possible to win with a slower car, the chances of it happening are much lower... A slower car that has a perfect race does not win Le Mans every time... There are plenty of examples where the fastest cars had the perfect race, at which point the slower cars have absolutely no chance... This happened this year, and many years before...

I am not talking about possibilities, I am talking about unfair conditions... I also believe Ferrari wouldn't have won even if they had the same speed..

But that's not the point of discussion, the point of discussion is weather or not the BoP equalized the field or gave an unfair advantage

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by arakis

While it is possible to win with a slower car, the chances of it happening are much lower... A slower car that has a perfect race does not win Le Mans every time... There are plenty of examples where the fastest cars had the perfect race, at which point the slower cars have absolutely no chance... This happened this year, and many years before...

I am not talking about possibilities, I am talking about unfair conditions... I also believe Ferrari wouldn't have won even if they had the same speed..

But that's not the point of discussion, the point of discussion is weather or not the BoP equalized the field or gave an unfair advantage

Of course, you're right. I'm with you. Not always a slower car is capable to win the race. This is a fact. But if you add low speed to several kind of mistakes... it's impossible to win. On the other hand, you can have the fastest car, but if you don't manage it in the right way... it's very hard to win.
About the BoP, I agree. It must be revised: all the cars must have a pace as close as possible. All must have the same chances to win.

[zanfo zanfagni]

The only thin that bop balanced was the consume, all cars (except viper) were able to have similiar stint lenght. But even if performances are close to be the same for the different cars, all this is obtained in the most unfair way. 458 was the car too much performant? so penalize it and give to the other rivals waivers and bop breaks. To change now this bop to make a bit happy ferrari confirm ever more the stupidity of this system.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=UotNe4FbkcQ

Porsche's brief recap video of the race.

It's a great video, really showing how to be gracious in victory.

[Dario911]

Great video. I like it is dedicated to Allan.

[Aysedasi]

Great video - perfectly done tribute.

[Dario911]

It will be hard to wait one year before next Le Mans!

[jsTrecu]

Great video indeed.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by arakis

Quote from ferrari.com

However, this sort of result in the main class was totally predictable. The “balance of performance,” the current handicap system put in place by the FIA and the ACO for the GT and Sports races, leaves little room for imagination.

Although the 2013 458 GT has undergone significant development compared to last year, it is still heavily penalised when compared to the best of the opposition, such as Porsche and Aston Martin. At Le Mans, in all track conditions, the Maranello cars were not competitive, lacking on every front: power, aerodynamic downforce and amount of fuel available for use.

Mistakes and unlucky incidents also played their part – one only has to find oneself in the second or third part of a group in a period when the race is neutralized, to lose a lap – but undoubtedly, the chances of fighting for the win were already gone before the start. The performance difference was very clear to see – both in outright terms and when looking at average lap times, so that only totally unpredictable events would have allowed the reigning champion car to fight for the double. Now it’s plausible to expect a change to the so called “BoP” prior to the second part of the World Endurance Championship, but as the saying goes, that’s a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. The next race takes place in Sao Paolo, Brazil on 1st September.

full article http://corseclienti.ferrari.com/2013...ent-surprises/

but actually...because whats the point in giving the Ferrari the BOP blessing now so they can outrun everyone else just in time to get sacked before 2014 Le Mans?? No need. I think the Aston and Porsche need to be reigned in The shows over. Aston and Porsche pulled the wool over ACO's eyes so to speak. Now just reign them in.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=UotNe4FbkcQ

Porsche's brief recap video of the race.

Thats beautiful. Well done to Porsche for doing it with class.

I've got something in my eye........

[Brake dust]

When are the new ACO/FIA GT regulations going to be complete? The head of Porsche motorsport, Hartmut Kristen indicated that Porsche would not be investing millions of Euros in a new engine util future regulations are in place. Sounds like the 991 RSR will continue on with the Mezger engine in 2014 and the 9A1 engine will not be used for top level sports car racing.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Great video - perfectly done tribute.

+1 ...... top notch .

[Articus]

Im trying to piece together Ferrari's season and apparently they are as well. The 458 GTE GT3 and Grand Am have had no success outside of Ferrari at Spa. No wins in ALMS. No wins in Grand-Am. Cant recall any GT3 success. Not at N24. What can Ferrari realistically change that Michelloto couldn't? It seems like alot of other cars made much larger development leaps over off season than any of the Ferrari's

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Articus

Cant recall any GT3 success.

Then you haven't been watching the BES.