Michelin Teams: "Build a Chicane or We Don't Race"

[bradrive]

Originally Posted by bradrive

The physical problem occuring in Indy is that the constructions are breaking under a combination of high lateral loads combined with high radial loads and high tyre temperature as caused by the banked last turn. The problem can only be detected after having the tyres taken of the rims and examining the tyres from inside. As said before it is a common problen in professional touring car racing.

I believe all teams will run (they have to race by contract) and be given the chance to reduce camber and raise tyre pressures by Fia before the race. And if they follow Michelin's advice their cars will arrive at the finishline.

[JeremySmith]

That is very interesting bradrive. So it looks like some teams are not running tyres to Michelin specs then? Which is dangerous I would have thought, I suppose there is "nudge" room in there as far as pressures are concerned. Is it just time for a control tyre then and enough of this nonsence what do you think?

[bradrive]

[QUOTE=alesi95]It does appear that Bridgestone just has a better tyre and Michelin will be forced to run hard. Thus the Michelin teams are wining about it.

It is not about the compound. It is a tyre construction issue. Too weak construction in the sidewall.

[f1atic]

I think the chicane idea is rubbish!

Michelin have flown in Barcelona spec tires. I say let them run the different tires, BUT all Bridgestone runners assume P-1 through P-6 (this is to prevent them from running into an accident caused by the Michelin runners ) and a penalty imposed mid-race such as a 10 second stop and go.

Seven teams have made their bed and I believe they should have to lay in for a while. Nobody gave any special breaks to Ferrari (or the other two) when it was clear that the car had pace - just not in the one lap qualifying.

[bradrive]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

That is very interesting bradrive. So it looks like some teams are not running tyres to Michelin specs then? Which is dangerous I would have thought, I suppose there is "nudge" room in there as far as pressures are concerned. Is it just time for a control tyre then and enough of this nonsence what do you think?

Even running spec tyres as Bridgestone GP2 could create the same problems.
A tyre manufacturer will give recomendations regarding pressures but it is always the responsability of the teams too choose their pressure settings.
It is about certain teams risking too much. Generally speaking the Bridgestone F1 tyres are built to be operated at higher pressures than the Michelin.

[f1atic]

And there has already been the suggestion that Toyota were running a lower pressure. I read that Williams bumped the pressure up and while it created a balance issue, there were no other problems noticed.

[Don K]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Michelin's tyre was only dangerous when it popped, so when does a car come in to replace its "dangerous" tyres?

As soon as the organisers tell them that the tyres are dangerous.
For instance, they could say this as a recation on Michelin's statement that those tyres are not safe.

[pitcrew]

Originally Posted by f1atic

I think the chicane idea is rubbish!

Michelin have flown in Barcelona spec tires. I say let them run the different tires, BUT all Bridgestone runners assume P-1 through P-6 (this is to prevent them from running into an accident caused by the Michelin runners ) and a penalty imposed mid-race such as a 10 second stop and go.

Seven teams have made their bed and I believe they should have to lay in for a while. Nobody gave any special breaks to Ferrari (or the other two) when it was clear that the car had pace - just not in the one lap qualifying.

I Agree!

If the other tyres are safe to run on they should be used and a grid or stop go penalty should be introduced. no changes in track or anyother allowances should be allowed they run miches its their choice suffer there problems.

[Don K]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Also the penalty for changing none-damaged tyres is not clear. ... I suppose having to stop without taking fuel onboard is a penalty in itself.

I would think that the extra pit stop would be enough punishment, especially since they did not cause this situation themselves.

[f1atic]

Perhaps, but only if was for tire change only and any/all other things like fuel, nose, wing adjustments and etc would require a pitstop for those things. In other words, tire changes could not happen in conjunction with ANY other actions.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by alesi95

It does appear that Bridgestone just has a better tyre and Michelin will be forced to run hard. Thus the Michelin teams are wining about it.

This is not a compound issue. The problem is solely about tyre construction, in particular the sidewalls.

It does appear now that Toyota have been a little unwise in how they use the tyre and this should be sorted out hopefully.

[Menelaos]

Originally Posted by Don K

I would think that the extra pit stop would be enough punishment, especially since they did not cause this situation themselves.

agreed. It's not a performance issue after all (McLaren, BAR, Toyota, Renault qualified higher than Ferrari). I think teams should either be allowed to change their tyres before the race and go like x places back on the grid, or pit in to change their tyres as the rule is. The FIA could also fine michelin for the whole situation they caused.

[f1atic]

Originally Posted by Don K

I would think that the extra pit stop would be enough punishment, especially since they did not cause this situation themselves.

Indirectly they did. They chose Michelin.

[Gt_R]

Hmm..maybe everybody should just run on BS today

But as mentioned earlier, no teams face any serious problems with those tires. Michelin is probably taking the safe route and be conservative about it. I believe other teams would be fine with the tires if they try to work with Michelin's recommendation and tyre-limits.

Quote Boots:"Strange that it's a Ferrari fan who would want a race with 2 Ferraris and 4 backmarkers...."

Strange that you didn't bother to follow the whole argument. I'm simply responding to Knowlesy's argument if given 2 choice "6 cars or a chicane" which is worse. In reality, there are alternatives beyond that, and like i've said in earlier posts, i prefer 20 cars, with Michelins teams allowed to run new tyres which Michelin approve as safe, but the teams & michelin receive some form of penalty and start the race behind the BS-teams. No 6 cars, but more importantly, no chicane or regulation-bending.

[BootsOntheSide]

Allowing the Michelin teams to change tyres during the race is probably the fairest option, but the pitstops shouldn't allow them to make any further adjustment (as usual for 2005 tyre changes), and the stops should be enfroced as being taken early in the race, to prevent them being able to run on considerably less worn tyres. Also, it'll be fun to see whether Renault prioritise the higher-qualifying driver....

[Menelaos]

Of course they won't. Alonso goes for the title. Of course they would pit alonso first and although I'm a McLaren fan I wouldn't find that strange at all, and I wouldn't criticise it...

[f1atic]

I like the idea of having them change tires. Do it in the first five laps. They start the race as they are and stop before lap five to change tires and monitor that they do NOTHING ELSE - just a tire change.
This would be penalty enough, as their original fuel strategy would cause the extra stop.

Perhaps it would need to be imposed on all Michelin runners to prevent someone 'getting lucky' and suffering no problems, as that would look bad for the sport as well as Michelin I think.

[fantasytoca]

Looks like there certainly wont be a chicane - these letter have been posted on the FIA website


Letter from Representatives of Michelin to Charlie Whiting, the FIA Formula One Race Director:

Saturday June 18 2005
Indianapolis

Charlie Whiting, FIA Race Director and Safety delegate

Dear Mr Whiting

Having analysed and fully evaluated the tyre failures that have occurred over the Indianapolis Grand Prix practice sessions we have been unable to identify a root cause.

The current rules and timescale do not permit the use of an alternative tyre solution and the race must be performed with the qualifying tyres.

Michelin has in the sole interest of safety informed its partner teams that we do not have total assurance that all tyres that qualified the cars can be used unless the vehicle speed in turn 13 can be reduced.

Michelin very much regrets this situation, but has taken this decision after careful consideration and in the best interests of safety at the event.

We trust that the FIA can understand our position and we remain at your disposal if you want any further information.

Pierre Dupasquier
Michelin Motorsport Director

Nick Shorrock
Director of Michelin F1 activities

Cc:
Bernie Ecclestone
Michelin teams
Ron Dennis (West McLaren-Mercedes)
Flavio Briatore (Mild Seven Renault F1)
Frank Williams (BMW WilliamsF1 Team)
Peter Sauber (Sauber Petronas)
Christian Horner (Red Bull Racing)
Nick Fry (B-A-R Honda)
John Howett (Panasonic Toyota Racing)


Letter from Charlie Whiting, the FIA Formula One Race Director, in reply to above letter from Representatives of Michelin:

19 June, 2005

Dear Mr Dupasquier,
Dear Mr Shorrock,

We have received your letter of 18 June.

We are very surprised that this difficulty has arisen. As you know, each team is allowed to bring two different types of tyre to an event so as to ensure that a back-up (usually of lower performance) is available should problems occur. It is hard to understand why you have not supplied your teams with such a tyre given your years of experience at Indianapolis.

That the teams you supply are not in possession of such a tyre will also be a matter for the FIA to consider in due course under Article 151c of the International Sporting Code.

No doubt you will inform your teams what is the maximum safe speed for their cars in Turn 13. We will remind them of the need to follow your advice for safety reasons. We will also ask them to ensure their cars do not obstruct other competitors.

Some of the teams have raised with us the possibility of running a tyre which was not used in qualifying. We have told them this would be a breach of the rules to be considered by the stewards. We believe the penalty would not be exclusion but would have to be heavy enough to ensure that no team was tempted to use qualifying tyres in the future.

Another possibility would be for the relevant teams repeatedly to change the affected tyre during the race (we understand you have told your teams the left rear is safe for a maximum of ten laps at full speed). If the technical delegate and the stewards were satisfied that each change was made because the tyre would otherwise fail (thus for genuine safety reasons) and that the relevant team were not gaining an advantage, there would be no penalty. If this meant using tyres additional to a teams’ allocation, the stewards would consider all the circumstances in deciding what penalty, if any, to apply.

Finally, it has been suggested that a chicane should be laid out in Turn 13. I am sure you will appreciate that this is out of the question. To change the course in order to help some of the teams with a performance problem caused by their failure to bring suitable equipment to the race would be a breach of the rules and grossly unfair to those teams which have come to Indianapolis with the correct tyres.

Yours sincerely,

Charlie Whiting
FIA Formula One Race Director

So it looks like the Michelin teams will have to either run at reduced speed through turn 13 or pit every 10 laps to change tyres - either way I reckon Jordan and Minardi could be on for some points and MS and RB can probably pop out for a big mac half way through the race and still come back and make it a Ferrari 1-2

[f1atic]

Well, here is Charlie Whiting's reply to the request.
http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/050619/40/bnmd.html
In essence, he said that since Michelin have said their tires were okay for full speed for 10 laps, then perhaps they would be allowed to stop and change them every 10 laps

No penalty needed

[johnw]

As has already been raised, I'm sure that potential litigation is at the root of this dilemma.

If a car (or bits) went into the crowd, who would be held responsible?
Michelin for supplying tyes unfit for purpose?
The offending team for failing to follow Michelin's advice?
Bernie for not cancelling the race?
The FIA for not allowing a force majeure change?
Max for implementing the one tyre rule?
IMS for not providing a safety fence that works?
The Bridgestone runners for not agreeing to allow a change?

It goes on.....
And in the most litigeous country on the planet (although the UK, as usual, is doing it's best to catch up!), you can be sure the writ's would fly.

Hard to see an elegant solution :-(

[Knowlesy]

Doesn't bode well for the race on the face of it.

I hope this all turns out to be a load of hot air, though I fear not.

[Heebeegeetee]

What a farce...

[Kicking-back]

Michelin seem to be saying their tyre will only last 10 laps through the banking - so this is nothing to do with the one tyre rule, but down to total and utter stupidity from Michelin!

[Menelaos]

yeah, I mean, it's not just "no penalty needed". Any penalty would be unjustified. It's perfectly legal changing tyres for security reasons. Anyway, it seems we'll see a minardi/jordan on the podium today

[Marbot]

In any event,the only chance of a Michelin shod team winning today is if both Ferrari's break down,but they'll be going well within their limits anyway,so not much chance of that i think.

So a Ferrari 1-2 across the line,the race seems to be theirs to lose.