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26 Mar 2013, 01:40 (Ref:3224787) | #51 | ||
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Once upon a time, when a lead driver's car was taken out of the race for one reason or another they would call in a teammate and swap him out of the car and put the leading driver back in.
To suggest that team orders, or putting one team member before others, is a new thing is quite erroneous. |
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26 Mar 2013, 07:00 (Ref:3224825) | #52 | ||
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Team orders are fine, there just has to be a certain tact when they're applied. F1Pete made the distinction. Similiar to what he posted.
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26 Mar 2013, 07:25 (Ref:3224831) | #53 | ||
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At one time it would have been very difficult to outlaw team orders, with todays technology it is much easier to spot and penalise, however we must consider what is more important, the drivers title or the constructors. Unfortunately by bigging up the drivers we have caused this problem ourselves.
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26 Mar 2013, 07:25 (Ref:3224832) | #54 | |
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Team order, yes. But after the 1. Lap. Its very funny.
Racing is the quickest win. A Team is nothing without a quick Driver. Formula 1 isnt racing and Motorsport. It is advertising. I think I will no longer watch Formula 1. |
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26 Mar 2013, 08:39 (Ref:3224854) | #55 | ||
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Eventually the question of team orders will be taken out of the sports hands.
Recently in Victoria, legislation has been introduced to criminalise match fixing. Clearly team orders in motor sport is an attempt to fix or manipulate the results of the race. It has long been part of the sport and many people believe it is okay, but those outside of the sport who often don't understand the sport will eventually come to the conclusion (rightly or wrongly) that team orders is just another form of match fixing and will act through various parliaments or even the EU to stopping the practice. |
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26 Mar 2013, 11:19 (Ref:3224917) | #56 | ||
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Quote:
Lets face it motorsport is the same as other sports that have questionable reputations when outside influences affect the result! It is all about the MONEY! |
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26 Mar 2013, 11:30 (Ref:3224924) | #57 | ||
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They could keep/ban team orders and I wouldn't much care. Team orders are a part of a multifaceted sport and racing takes place on numerous levels. On the track, between the drivers and between the teams, off-the track, in the design room and in the commercial world. All of that is an essential part of the ingredients necessary for ultimate victory. But if they want to ban TO, they can do that and let it be an underground thing.
Another way of tackling it is by limiting F1 teams to a single car and allowing 11 other teams to participate. I appreciate though it'd never happen as it would require the established teams to give up too much of their interests. |
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26 Mar 2013, 11:46 (Ref:3224938) | #58 | |||
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It's cool to hate Vettel so the cool kids didn't want him ignoring orders and passing, but it's cool to hate Hamilton so the cool kids wanted Rosberg to disobey orders and pass him. |
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26 Mar 2013, 11:51 (Ref:3224943) | #59 | |
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Or take Formula 1 for what it is. No racing, no motorsport.
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26 Mar 2013, 11:52 (Ref:3224944) | #60 | |
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I made this post on another thread... but it's probably more appropriate here.
Here's an interesting take on things. I was trying to explain the background behind what happened on Sunday to a 'lay person' last night. My friend asked me this... Is it a bit like the head coach of Jamaica telling Usain Bolt to let Yohan Blake win the 200m so that he would be in better shape to win the 100m himself... as all that mattered was that Team Jamaica came away with two golds ? I said yes, that's essentially what it was... but that he needed to understand that because the teams had millions vested in their F1 campaigns, the on track driver battles had to take a back seat to the team result... whether that be contrived or not. In that case he said, there shouldn't be such a thing as a drivers championship, only a teams championship. |
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26 Mar 2013, 12:12 (Ref:3224956) | #61 | ||
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It will be interesting to see the long term implications of these team order situations and how it will affect them in the long term, it one remembers the situation at McLaren in 2007. |
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26 Mar 2013, 12:16 (Ref:3224959) | #62 | |
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26 Mar 2013, 12:25 (Ref:3224968) | #63 | |
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Ecclestone has his say.
http://www.crash.net/f1/news/189295/...iver_feud.html The teams would do well to take note. |
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26 Mar 2013, 12:25 (Ref:3224969) | #64 | |||
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Whether I am a cool kid, well who knows? |
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26 Mar 2013, 12:58 (Ref:3224997) | #65 | ||
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Is it just possible that Red Bull have been too clever in the past with driver instructions?
The only thing that possibly explains Vettel's decision is misinterpretation of the instructions? He would know radio messages were monitored, so maybe he thought the team were telling him to do the exact opposite of what they were actually saying? It was only when the race had finished that he realised they REALLY DID mean hold your position? Perhaps that's why he said he'd cocked-up and it wasn't deliberate? He appears far too bright to just blatantly stick two fingers up.....? |
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26 Mar 2013, 13:11 (Ref:3225003) | #66 | |
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Whatever your thoughts about it are, implementing team orders in the second race out of nineteen only makes the people who watch other sports more convinced that F1 is fixed if the whole point of it is to find out who the best driver is. They know enough about F1 to know that no one really gives a damn about which team wins it, and only about which driver wins it. 2012 was a good example of that (Who was overcome with joy when the soft drinks manufacturer won the constructors championship, again? Can you even remember which race it was at?). The number of driver threads on this forum is a good example of that (Hamilton vs Rosberg, etc).
Premiere league football is all about which team wins it and not about which player scores the most goals. Therefore, it is truly a team sport. You can find other examples in sport of whole teams benefiting just the one team player (cycling, etc), but those are equally puzzling to those who watch soccer, cricket, hockey, rugby, etc. Please note that I'm all for team orders in F1 if they are legal. Last edited by Marbot; 26 Mar 2013 at 13:31. |
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26 Mar 2013, 13:44 (Ref:3225024) | #67 | |
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26 Mar 2013, 13:49 (Ref:3225029) | #68 | ||
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Team orders aren't racing (to answer the original question). Racing is where everyone drives as fast as possible for the whole race (without crashing or breaking the car - I'll come back to this point later), and the fastest driver therefore wins the race.
It is however in the best interest of the team that both cars finish the race (especially if they're first and second), and as asking the drivers to hold position (or however you want to word this) should prevent them from crashing (into each other?) of breaking the car(s), this is also in the best interests of the team. |
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26 Mar 2013, 14:03 (Ref:3225040) | #69 | ||
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Answer that question and you will find out if F1 is a sport or a business model. Last edited by Marbot; 26 Mar 2013 at 14:09. |
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26 Mar 2013, 14:27 (Ref:3225046) | #70 | |
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This the only answer to that question I'm afraid. Team orders neutralize a race in a similar way to a safety car.
There are ways of reconfiguring Formula One such that team orders wouldn't be necessary... and that would be a better approach than trying to make them illegal - something that doesn't work. |
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26 Mar 2013, 14:37 (Ref:3225047) | #71 | |
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Doing away with the drivers championship would be the only way. But surely that is the most important championship, and all of this 'it's a team sport' stuff we're hearing is merely a cover for the fact that FOM bonus payments are really the greatest prize in F1?
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26 Mar 2013, 15:03 (Ref:3225053) | #72 | |
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Or you could do away with the team championship. Give all teams the same share of the TV funding... and give the drivers big prize money for winning races and championships.
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26 Mar 2013, 15:14 (Ref:3225057) | #73 | ||
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No, they are not, not at this stage of the season.
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26 Mar 2013, 15:24 (Ref:3225062) | #74 | ||
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Is it me or are people moving away from what actually happened (as I understand it).
Webber was told to turn his engine down to preserve fuel and the engine, since the team thought that's how the positions would stay if nothing was done. He was told that Vettel would not overtake him. Vettel took advantage of Webber's low power engine and caught and overtook him, whilst under strict order not too. Had Webber NOT turned his engine down, in all likelihood, Vettel would not have been able to overtake him, OR, they would have driven like the Merc's did for a while - over take under DRS, get overtaken back under DRS (with associated risk of touching and losing constructor points) The point being, Vettel overtook Webber while his engine was turned down. That's NOT RACING. That, as I've said before, is taking candy from a baby, and has NO redeeming qualities whatsoever. If I have any facts wrong, please enlighten me. |
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26 Mar 2013, 15:57 (Ref:3225072) | #75 | ||
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Although Mark is obviously a very good racer he knows that he is in his twilight years in F1 and in a top team.
I would think that he has made a fair bit of money whilst being at Red Bull and up till now has "bitten his tongue" a few times, however after this latest fiasco he could well change his attitude this year ! |
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