IMSA You can’t get excited about a race with these safety car and stoppage rules

[GT3_Fan]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

You know that knob on the TV, you can turn it and watch something else. Oh yeah, and pretending it's nascar shows you're effin clueless, similar rules were in alms but heaven forbid actually have a complaint that's not oh NASCAR in basis. We get it, you're an elite mind and you know how to run something you've had ZERO ZERO ZERO actual day to day involvement in.

Well I just did turn if off earlier today in fact! And watching now NLS replay actually. A series and a track that knows how to manage stalled car situations. It is 7 pm as I am typing this. I decided to not even look at the standings in the Sebring race until almost 10 pm. I am predicting no less than 5 cars on the lead lap in GTP. 50/50 odds there is a safety car period with 20 minutes to go in the race.

ALMS did not have similar rules. You actually had to pass lapped cars at a restart. In fact you had to do that through 2017. Otherwise Long Beach would not have been as interesting as it was when a GTLM car was leading overall with under 20 minutes left. And I think the wave around rules came from Grand Am more than ALMS.

You can like something and still criticize it for its faults. If I ever see John Doonan walk by at a track I'm going to say to him that the current safety car procedures is ruining the quality of the races in the series. Most of all the endurance races. It is the largest problem the for IMSA Weathertech series right now by far.

[Nick Woodbury]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

You know that knob on the TV, you can turn it and watch something else. Oh yeah, and pretending it's nascar shows you're effin clueless, similar rules were in alms but heaven forbid actually have a complaint that's not oh NASCAR in basis. We get it, you're an elite mind and you know how to run something you've had ZERO ZERO ZERO actual day to day involvement in.

Strong response, Broad! I appreciate it.

I haven't watched the US TV broadcasts of IMSA races in a while since they aren't as good as Hindy and the ad free IMSA Tv global feed.

But more concerning, your attitude reeks of a race fan that's numb to everything that could make this series even greater than it is...simply because it's "good enough". The classic, "its good enough for me therefore there's no reason why it shouldn't be for you", is such an apathetic standpoint. As a fan I want this series to be the best it can possibly be, and I'll proudly continue to beat that drum. I also find it ironic how fans in your class of thought would never hesitate to criticize the likes of nascar and how race control manages their (artificial) races. Yet, when a justified concern comes forward when the series' starts edging closer and closer to the worst habits of it's stock car racing parent company, it's completely out of line? Oh well, 'spose were gonna have to agree to disagree, Broad.

[GT3_Fan]

Originally Posted by Nick Woodbury

Strong response, Broad! I appreciate it.

I haven't watched the US TV broadcasts of IMSA races in a while since they aren't as good as Hindy and the ad free IMSA Tv global feed.

But more concerning, your attitude reeks of a race fan that's numb to everything that could make this series even greater than it is...simply because it's "good enough". The classic, "its good enough for me therefore there's no reason why it shouldn't be for you", is such an apathetic standpoint. As a fan I want this series to be the best it can possibly be, and I'll proudly continue to beat that drum. I also find it ironic how fans in your class of thought would never hesitate to criticize the likes of nascar and how race control manages their (artificial) races. Yet, when a justified concern comes forward when the series' starts edging closer and closer to the worst habits of it's stock car racing parent company, it's completely out of line? Oh well, 'spose were gonna have to agree to disagree, Broad.

Great comment Nick, 100% agree.

[N Martin]

Hi all first post here. I agree I can't get excited with IMSA races. I actually skipped Daytona and Sebring last year for the first time in a very long time for this reason. I did check in on my phone periodically and literally every single time it was under yellow so wasn't missing much. For the future long IMSA races I'll probably just tune in for the last hour just to see the last race deciding yellow. However saying this like it or not it is bringing in viewers and attention to the series. Just look at the youtube comments/ other forums saying "Wow what a finish", "Amazing" and "imsa is the best" etc. For this reason I can't see them changing it anytime soon. We're either going to have to accept it or not watch it. Just my 2 pence for what it's worth.

[JT240Z]

It is what it is. I didn't like it in the beginning but now I can see some of the benefits. You can watch or not. It's up to you to decide. All I ask is, just don't act like a heckler on a thread that's full of fans that are watching it and enjoying it.

[GT3_Fan]

Originally Posted by JT240Z

It is what it is. I didn't like it in the beginning but now I can see some of the benefits. You can watch or not. It's up to you to decide. All I ask is, just don't act like a heckler on a thread that's full of fans that are watching it and enjoying it.

Thankfully there are other options. WEC is looking very interesting this year. NLS/N'Ring 24 season is here now. And you got GT WC, DTM, and other series. Last year the only IMSA I really watched was the all GT races of Lime Rock and VIR as I had lost interest in DPI totally. GTP is interesting enough I guess however I feel like its missing components with no LMH cars there and yeah the safety car procedures in IMSA suck. And it is at the endurance races where its flaws are really exposed. The safety car procedures suck with SRO/GTWC too though in a different way.

Thankfully with the IMSA Weathertech series "Sprint" race season starting at Long Beach, the safety car procedures does not rear its ugly head as much. Long Beach in particular looks awesome since it will be just GTP and GTD. NO p2 or p3 filling up space.

[fieldodreams79]

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Nick Woodbury

Strong response, Broad! I appreciate it.

I haven't watched the US TV broadcasts of IMSA races in a while since they aren't as good as Hindy and the ad free IMSA Tv global feed.

But more concerning, your attitude reeks of a race fan that's numb to everything that could make this series even greater than it is...simply because it's "good enough". The classic, "its good enough for me therefore there's no reason why it shouldn't be for you", is such an apathetic standpoint. As a fan I want this series to be the best it can possibly be, and I'll proudly continue to beat that drum. I also find it ironic how fans in your class of thought would never hesitate to criticize the likes of nascar and how race control manages their (artificial) races. Yet, when a justified concern comes forward when the series' starts edging closer and closer to the worst habits of it's stock car racing parent company, it's completely out of line? Oh well, 'spose were gonna have to agree to disagree, Broad.

The first time I hear about the series taking Tenths comments in to account I'll accept ANYTHING you listed above. Th ONLY ONLY ONLY power you have as a fan to introduce change is turning it off and not supporting those events. Otherwise what exactly are you actually doing to affect change?? Whinging and crying online with "solutions" that have been discussed in depth as to why, when some of us have actually asked those involved, they won't work isn't exactly a solution y'all think it is. It's a rocking chair, gives you something to do but won't get ya anywhere.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by GT3_Fan

Well I just did turn if off earlier today in fact! And watching now NLS replay actually. A series and a track that knows how to manage stalled car situations. It is 7 pm as I am typing this. I decided to not even look at the standings in the Sebring race until almost 10 pm. I am predicting no less than 5 cars on the lead lap in GTP. 50/50 odds there is a safety car period with 20 minutes to go in the race.

ALMS did not have similar rules. You actually had to pass lapped cars at a restart. In fact you had to do that through 2017. Otherwise Long Beach would not have been as interesting as it was when a GTLM car was leading overall with under 20 minutes left. And I think the wave around rules came from Grand Am more than ALMS.

You can like something and still criticize it for its faults. If I ever see John Doonan walk by at a track I'm going to say to him that the current safety car procedures is ruining the quality of the races in the series. Most of all the endurance races. It is the largest problem the for IMSA Weathertech series right now by far.

I had a chat with John on Friday morning before qualifying and we didn't bother to bring it up. Nice fellow and he came back for a visit to our flag station with Marshal Pruett a bit later that day.

[GT3_Fan]

David Land's live show covers the WEC vs IMSA safety car procedures in their Sebring review. Start at 6 minutes 40 seconds into the video. I agree with pretty much everything they are saying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXIpXNWxzfA

[traygerr]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

personally dont see an issue with the rules.

Its a good balance between endurance racing and keeping the race entertaining...it also removed any issues of being fair/ not fair with pitstops etc

bare in mind too that until the safety car with an hour ago, we had a full 6ish hours of green running...4 grand prix lengths.

We also had a bad nearly 4 hours of yellow, slow, everybody catch up strolling

[RL17]

Did catch up a bit on YouTube - long long SC period after an hour or so just for a couple of stopped cars parked close to track?

[Adam43]

Yes. The length of the FCY period is not only related to the incident. It is related to the standard process they have (pit stops waive rounds). If they call A FCY they follow the same procedure every time. No surprises!

It’ll only be longer if there is a longer tidy up to do like barrier repaired. It is only shorter if they’ve had another FCY within the last 30 minutes or they are in the last 30 minutes of the race

FCY periods are pretty much always the same length.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Yes. The length of the FCY period is not only related to the incident. It is related to the standard process they have (pit stops waive rounds). If they call A FCY they follow the same procedure every time. No surprises!

It’ll only be longer if there is a longer tidy up to do like barrier repaired. It is only shorter if they’ve had another FCY within the last 30 minutes or they are in the last 30 minutes of the race

FCY periods are pretty much always the same length.

You're contradicting yourself somewhat. There are 2 versions of FCY: the standard one and the short one. Difference is pits staying closed for the shorter version. As you described short ones are only applied if a previous FCY was less than 30 minutes prior + during last 30 mins of a race. Time difference between the 2 versions is around 10 mins.

I'm in favor of dropping the standard version and applying the short one for every FCY. Pits closed every time. The occasional fuel victim does not outweigh the substantial amount of green racing time gained.

[JT240Z]

After reading through this entire thread again, I've come to the following conclusion:

FCY should be reserved for major incidents that endanger drivers and safety staff otherwise return to corner yellow flags.

Laps back should be allowed but only to the back of the pack. No dual group restarts.

Pits stay closed unless the duration of the FCY exceeds a certain amount of time.

I know of the safety concerns and understand the fan's needs. I've followed IMSA for some time now and do feel that the Grand AM effect on FCYs was very obvious. There are compromises that can be made and should be made, but maybe only starting at the beginning of the season and announced well in advance in order to make it fair for the teams to adjust.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

You're contradicting yourself somewhat. There are 2 versions of FCY: the standard one and the short one.

I thought that’s what I said! Poorly written, sorry.

Difference is pits staying closed for the shorter version. As you described short ones are only applied if a previous FCY was less than 30 minutes prior + during last 30 mins of a race. Time difference between the 2 versions is around 10 mins.

Yes.

Although you have failed somewhat in your description. It can be longer if there is a lot of tidy up to do.

I'm in favor of dropping the standard version and applying the short one for every FCY. Pits closed every time. The occasional fuel victim does not outweigh the substantial amount of green racing time gained.

I’d be cool with that too, but they’ve chosen to have the different route.

Whatever, they are pretty consistent in how they apply it. Although they are often accused of not being so.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by JT240Z

After reading through this entire thread again, I've come to the following conclusion:

FCY should be reserved for major incidents that endanger drivers and safety staff otherwise return to corner yellow flags.

I think that if you ask IMSA they’d say this is what they are doing. The debris and cars stopped by the side need a break in traffic to attend too. FCY it is.

I also think IMSA try to give the chance of just local yellow. Opportunity, sometime too much maybe, is given for a stranded car to get going again.

Laps back should be allowed but only to the back of the pack. No dual group restarts.

Pits stay closed unless the duration of the FCY exceeds a certain amount of time.

I’m fine with less of the current procedure. But this suggestion could open up differences.

I know of the safety concerns and understand the fan's needs. I've followed IMSA for some time now and do feel that the Grand AM effect on FCYs was very obvious. There are compromises that can be made and should be made, but maybe only starting at the beginning of the season and announced well in advance in order to make it fair for the teams to adjust.

It is way better than the GrandAm days. Possibly because they try to give it chance to work itself out before the FCY.

[GT3_Fan]

From the S365 post race notebook

***The race featured 13 full-course cautions, totaling 93 laps or three-and-a-half hours of time behind the safety car.


My thoughts...this is a major reason why my interest in the Petit Le Mans has diminished over the years. I hardly watched it on Saturday to be honest. I knew what was going to happen.

[JT240Z]

Originally Posted by GT3_Fan

From the S365 post race notebook

***The race featured 13 full-course cautions, totaling 93 laps or three-and-a-half hours of time behind the safety car.


My thoughts...this is a major reason why my interest in the Petit Le Mans has diminished over the years. I hardly watched it on Saturday to be honest. I knew what was going to happen.

You must be in the minority since attendance this year was up 22 percent over last year and last year was a record crowd.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by GT3_Fan

From the S365 post race notebook

***The race featured 13 full-course cautions, totaling 93 laps or three-and-a-half hours of time behind the safety car.


My thoughts...this is a major reason why my interest in the Petit Le Mans has diminished over the years. I hardly watched it on Saturday to be honest. I knew what was going to happen.

Ok, then no need to comment about how bad it is. You can just move to the JUNK that is straight GT3 racing and have IMSA to the thousands who show up and support the series over the tens of fans you see on GTAmerica events

[GT3_Fan]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Ok, then no need to comment about how bad it is. You can just move to the JUNK that is straight GT3 racing and have IMSA to the thousands who show up and support the series over the tens of fans you see on GTAmerica events

Well it sure don't make for great TV at least!

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by GT3_Fan

From the S365 post race notebook

***The race featured 13 full-course cautions, totaling 93 laps or three-and-a-half hours of time behind the safety car.


My thoughts...this is a major reason why my interest in the Petit Le Mans has diminished over the years. I hardly watched it on Saturday to be honest. I knew what was going to happen.

Not disagreeing all the cautions take away from the superb racing we're not seeing enough of, but at the same time a good chunk of said racing is being 'created' by bunching up the field. With all the 'goods and bads' that come with it!

Just for a bit of perspective: When flagging the Petit back in '01 (or '02), I remember we had 12 cautions during the race. And while there were no 'pass-by and 'drive-by' procedures back then, it still took considerable time away from the racing. In other words, it's nothing new. It's not going away either.

[GT3_Fan]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Not disagreeing all the cautions take away from the superb racing we're not seeing enough of, but at the same time a good chunk of said racing is being 'created' by bunching up the field. With all the 'goods and bads' that come with it!

Just for a bit of perspective: When flagging the Petit back in '01 (or '02), I remember we had 12 cautions during the race. And while there were no 'pass-by and 'drive-by' procedures back then, it still took considerable time away from the racing. In other words, it's nothing new. It's not going away either.

I guess so, clearly is not on the IMSA priority list at the moment.

[joeb]

I noticed something else at petit that I hadn't recently with the yellow flag procedures. There were a lot of extra track vehicles on track, moving around and doing maneuvers that didn't seem necessary or related to the incident at hand. It seemed pretty dangerous and they were always in the way in corners and I was worried one of the cars was going to hit them. At one point a car was being flat towed back to the pits and they just pulled out on the back straight in front of the oncoming slew of cars and then after they're getting passed into turn 10 they decided to stop and let the field go by.

[GT3_Fan]

Bumping this one to the top. We'll need it to discuss the 2024 Daytona "24"....or is it 23.5 parade with a 0.5 mad dash of calamity. Or perhaps we can get a return of 2018 and 2020 with a restoration of endurance sanity hopefully. Stay tuned.