How would you deal with The problems facing single seater racing

[RF_Racer]

I dont see why the British F3 series cannot run a season for around £300-350k tops, they seem to manage in F3 Open. They need to ban aero development and run the cars how they come from Dallara. I wouldnt be surprised if it does get canned just like UK Formula Renault did last year.

[edenrace]

Their is hardly any aero development in F 3 with the new regulations that came out last year. Yes £350000 is a target price and can be achieved if the 10000 Kms is reduced ,this is far more than other series that utilises a Fia spec engine or similar

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by RF_Racer

They need to ban aero development and run the cars how they come from Dallara.

You mean make it a spec. series ? Now why didn't anyone think of that before

[BtccLee]

If Formula Renault 1.6 does run next year and Brit F3 returns, can five series (F4,FFord,FRenault BARC) really survive?

That is doubtful, so which do we think "could" be canned?

And do you think FRenault 1.6 and Brit F3 will acutally run?

[FFfan]

Originally Posted by BtccLee

If Formula Renault 1.6 does run next year and Brit F3 returns, can five series (F4,FFord,FRenault BARC) really survive?

That is doubtful, so which do we think "could" be canned?

And do you think FRenault 1.6 and Brit F3 will acutally run?

If Renault 1.6 runs it will most likely replace the "old" generation Tatuus car being run in the Protyre Championship. Some (not me) consider this to now be a little too dated; though I think it is still a great proven, relatively cheap and reliable product & that is why it continues to be strong in these austere times. Without doubt it was the UK Junior single seater Championship to be in last season (2012).

I don't consider British F3 to be part of the equation as it is the step above and personally I cannot seeing it regaining it's former glory days in the immediate future sad as that is. So essentially we still have three junior series which we have done for the past few seasons anyway. F4 has simply replaced Intersteps and prior to that FBMW. In fact when you consider in 2011 FRUK was still around then there were 4 series then with the then FRBARC being a feeder to it.

Unfortunately there are just fewer drivers around with budgets for single seaters though interstingly (& this very valid point has already been made by Bella in another thread) it's UK drivers that are in decline as opposed to overseas. It seems UK drivers would rather support cheaper & far more popular options such as Fiesta's, MX5, GT's etc

DM

[BtccLee]

Originally Posted by FFfan

If Renault 1.6 runs it will most likely replace the "old" generation Tatuus car being run in the Protyre Championship. Some (not me) consider this to now be a little too dated; though I think it is still a great proven, relatively cheap and reliable product & that is why it continues to be strong in these austere times. Without doubt it was the UK Junior single seater Championship to be in last season (2012).

I don't consider British F3 to be part of the equation as it is the step above and personally I cannot seeing it regaining it's former glory days in the immediate future sad as that is. So essentially we still have three junior series which we have done for the past few seasons anyway. F4 has simply replaced Intersteps and prior to that FBMW. In fact when you consider in 2011 FRUK was still around then there were 4 series then with the then FRBARC being a feeder to it.

Unfortunately there are just fewer drivers around with budgets for single seaters though interstingly (& this very valid point has already been made by Bella in another thread) it's UK drivers that are in decline as opposed to overseas. It seems UK drivers would rather support cheaper & far more popular options such as Fiesta's, MX5, GT's etc

DM

Yes but if it stays at three that is certainly manageable. We have grids from official 16 to 18, which will grow in each category.
Things may be looking up...

[threadbear]

This problem is very complex. It is not correct to say that the problem is with single seater racing, but just that single seater racing in the uk has declined. Last weekend 38 cars raced in FR 2.0 NEC at Hockenheim, as well as 36 in FR 2.0 ALPS at Vallelunga, so 74 cars, and a number of British drivers amongst them. Also a lot of "foriegn" I.e. non eu drivers, the ones who used to race in the uk. There were about 15 nationalities in both of those championships. Additionally, around 30 racing in F3 Euro championship, about the same in F3 open and 20 ish in german F3. So this points to a UK problem, not a single seater problem. Its the uk that doesn't have a clear career path for drivers like we used to have, formula ford has disappeared up its own arse, formula renault comitted commercial suicide by insisting on introducing a car that customers didn t want, and british F3 got ideas above its station and priced itself out of its market. If it had gone the ToCA route that some of us fought for eight years ago it would still be successful today. Added to that are a bunch of unprofessional, unfriendly and under-investing circuits, and an organising body run by the same guy who owns and benefits financially from ToCA and the complexity of the problem starts to become clear. And that's just a start....there is today a clear path for drivers to go to F1, it is the FR 2.0 then Euro, FR 3.5 and F1. Unfortunately, none of that involves the UK . F4, FFord and FR BARC are just irrelevant club championships, and that is what british motorsport has become, club racing.

[brakedisc]

Originally Posted by threadbear

This problem is very complex. It is not correct to say that the problem is with single seater racing, but just that single seater racing in the uk has declined. Last weekend 38 cars raced in FR 2.0 NEC at Hockenheim, as well as 36 in FR 2.0 ALPS at Vallelunga, so 74 cars, and a number of British drivers amongst them. Also a lot of "foriegn" I.e. non eu drivers, the ones who used to race in the uk. There were about 15 nationalities in both of those championships. Additionally, around 30 racing in F3 Euro championship, about the same in F3 open and 20 ish in german F3. So this points to a UK problem, not a single seater problem. Its the uk that doesn't have a clear career path for drivers like we used to have, formula ford has disappeared up its own arse, formula renault comitted commercial suicide by insisting on introducing a car that customers didn t want, and british F3 got ideas above its station and priced itself out of its market. If it had gone the ToCA route that some of us fought for eight years ago it would still be successful today. Added to that are a bunch of unprofessional, unfriendly and under-investing circuits, and an organising body run by the same guy who owns and benefits financially from ToCA and the complexity of the problem starts to become clear. And that's just a start....there is today a clear path for drivers to go to F1, it is the FR 2.0 then Euro, FR 3.5 and F1. Unfortunately, none of that involves the UK . F4, FFord and FR BARC are just irrelevant club championships, and that is what british motorsport has become, club racing.

WELL SAID THAT MAN.

[BtccLee]

I think the numbers exist for Brit F3. The budgets simply don't. If the costs are cut, if it remains in the UK, maybe if it joins the TOCA package (or doesn't) it can survive.

However, that many ifs could be too many. Could it come back? Yes.

Should it come back? Yes

Will it come back...

Actually, will the MSA take the bull by the horns and get its stuff together. Frankly, it must....

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by BtccLee

I think the numbers exist for Brit F3. The budgets simply don't. If the costs are cut, if it remains in the UK, maybe if it joins the TOCA package (or doesn't) it can survive.

However, that many ifs could be too many. Could it come back? Yes.

Should it come back? Yes

Will it come back...

Actually, will the MSA take the bull by the horns and get its stuff together. Frankly, it must....

It would be great, but UK motorsport prefers 'market forces' to intervention, that way no 'responsibility' exists from making unpopular decisions.

If XYZ car maker wanted to launch Formula XYZ in direct competition to exisiting formula, there would be a stampede from circuits, promoters and regulators to grab their share of the spoils.

The remaining championships would be left to their own devices - again.

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by threadbear

This problem is very complex. It is not correct to say that the problem is with single seater racing, but just that single seater racing in the uk has declined. Last weekend 38 cars raced in FR 2.0 NEC at Hockenheim, as well as 36 in FR 2.0 ALPS at Vallelunga, so 74 cars, and a number of British drivers amongst them. Also a lot of "foriegn" I.e. non eu drivers, the ones who used to race in the uk. There were about 15 nationalities in both of those championships. Additionally, around 30 racing in F3 Euro championship, about the same in F3 open and 20 ish in german F3. So this points to a UK problem, not a single seater problem. Its the uk that doesn't have a clear career path for drivers like we used to have, formula ford has disappeared up its own arse, formula renault comitted commercial suicide by insisting on introducing a car that customers didn t want, and british F3 got ideas above its station and priced itself out of its market. If it had gone the ToCA route that some of us fought for eight years ago it would still be successful today. Added to that are a bunch of unprofessional, unfriendly and under-investing circuits, and an organising body run by the same guy who owns and benefits financially from ToCA and the complexity of the problem starts to become clear. And that's just a start....there is today a clear path for drivers to go to F1, it is the FR 2.0 then Euro, FR 3.5 and F1. Unfortunately, none of that involves the UK . F4, FFord and FR BARC are just irrelevant club championships, and that is what british motorsport has become, club racing.

Spot on.

[chunterer]

I would've thought stopping spec formulas, at least in terms of chassis choice might help as competition is good for value to a degree and prevents firms cornering the market and charging whatever they like (bit like motorway services!)

Wouldn't want a development war though...

[Moneyseeker]

A good starting point would be to look at a FIA formula ladder with a clean sheet.

The FIA should commision a series of championships based on a series of clearly defined deliverables, each scaled as the driver moves up the ladder.

An entry level series for which the FIA is looking for a basic car to evaluate drivers basic skills, race craft, etc - built to a spec and able to run on a budget of X.

Repeat that up the ladder adding more technology and elements that are relevant to driver progression and again in a spec car and run to a maximum budget of X.

These 'FIA' series would be the only ones that gain licence signatures that would qualify for a super licence and they would be counted back to the entry level series, any missed levels would not make the driver eligible for a super licence. I would also add in that you could not compete in the next level without having contested the previous level.

Drivers could also be relegated to a level below if they fell below the required standards of the higher levels.

I would suggest 3 or 4 of these levels from entry to below F1 - all serious career drivers would have to complete all of them, which would also see driver competing against their peers instead of moving around between series.

This may sound very regulated and against all the free market principles that motor sport is based on, but this is a defined way to evaluted and develop drivers in a strictly controlled series.

To add to the uniqueness in this system, all F1 teams would have to run one driver selected by the FIA from their ladder in a junior driver test both on track and in their simulators - this would guarantee 10 young drivers would get to experience an F1 car.

[bella]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I would've thought stopping spec formulas, at least in terms of chassis choice might help as competition is good for value to a degree and prevents firms cornering the market and charging whatever they like (bit like motorway services!)

Wouldn't want a development war though...

yeah exactly. i think berger's f4 regulations lay the foundations to allow precisely that to happen, but people are too busy throwing their toys around about the completely rubbish british system to notice that actually, berger's getting there gradually.

for us here it's going to be a lot more work than in germany or france. particularly france, where they already lost their national formula renault 2.0 series, and handed over their f3 one to the germans so they could set up the euroseries. they've already cleared out the unsustainable stuff, we're just about in the middle of it right now.

meanwhile all the brdc f4 equivalents are being proposed just in time to be considered for berger's formula, and actually, they're demonstrating just how much faith there is in the demand for national level motorsport in britain. now it's just up to the msa to start sorting out who should and shouldn't run and in what capacity.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

A good starting point would be to look at a FIA formula ladder with a clean sheet.

The FIA should commision a series of championships based on a series of clearly defined deliverables, each scaled as the driver moves up the ladder.

An entry level series for which the FIA is looking for a basic car to evaluate drivers basic skills, race craft, etc - built to a spec and able to run on a budget of X.

Repeat that up the ladder adding more technology and elements that are relevant to driver progression and again in a spec car and run to a maximum budget of X.

These 'FIA' series would be the only ones that gain licence signatures that would qualify for a super licence and they would be counted back to the entry level series, any missed levels would not make the driver eligible for a super licence. I would also add in that you could not compete in the next level without having contested the previous level.

Drivers could also be relegated to a level below if they fell below the required standards of the higher levels.

I would suggest 3 or 4 of these levels from entry to below F1 - all serious career drivers would have to complete all of them, which would also see driver competing against their peers instead of moving around between series.

This may sound very regulated and against all the free market principles that motor sport is based on, but this is a defined way to evaluted and develop drivers in a strictly controlled series.

To add to the uniqueness in this system, all F1 teams would have to run one driver selected by the FIA from their ladder in a junior driver test both on track and in their simulators - this would guarantee 10 young drivers would get to experience an F1 car.

This doesn't happen very often but I agree with all of that!

Changes need to be FIA led as the MSA are incapable of solving the problem and with all the BRDC superstars, rising stars, pop stars or whatever I still see no way a talented individual can even rise out of the higher echelons of club racing without a hefty inheritance to fall back on.

A proper licensing system would help that, put an onus on teams to help look out for sponsorship for qualified drivers and probably drive prices down.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

These 'FIA' series would be the only ones that gain licence signatures that would qualify for a super licence and they would be counted back to the entry level series

Whilst I agree with much of what you say, however, I do question this particular caveat. Assume for the sake of argument that the single seater ladder comprises F2/F3/F4 series (or whatever they happen to be called), then a number of drivers, such as Ayrton Senna, Mika Hakkinen, Kimi Raikkonen and Fernando Alonso have missed out some of these rungs, without detriment. Therefore, if a driver is ready to make the step from, say, F3 to F1, then is it fair to compel them to a season in F2?

One way around this is to have a variety of means of getting signatures. This could mean that to get to F1, drivers need to have X signatures in F3 and F2 or alternatively X + X signatures in F3, but no F2 signatures.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by kipper

Whilst I agree with much of what you say, however, I do question this particular caveat. Assume for the sake of argument that the single seater ladder comprises F2/F3/F4 series (or whatever they happen to be called), then a number of drivers, such as Ayrton Senna, Mika Hakkinen, Kimi Raikkonen and Fernando Alonso have missed out some of these rungs, without detriment. Therefore, if a driver is ready to make the step from, say, F3 to F1, then is it fair to compel them to a season in F2?

One way around this is to have a variety of means of getting signatures. This could mean that to get to F1, drivers need to have X signatures in F3 and F2 or alternatively X + X signatures in F3, but no F2 signatures.

Yes I think that could work. Providing a driver was exceptional in F3 and the bar was set high enough, I think that would be OK. It has to be results based, that's the point and maybe just one per year could attain that status.

No missing out F4 (or whatever) though, before F3. I think that is a critical step.

[EastonNeston]

Sadly for your plans, but probably fortunately for most of us, we don't live in a socialist controlled economy so those plans would never work, and are actually in breach of several competition laws.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

Sadly for your plans, but probably fortunately for most of us, we don't live in a socialist controlled economy so those plans would never work, and are actually in breach of several competition laws.

Oh dear, here we go again!

First of all what on earth has a political system got to do with anything? Venezuela is presumably what you would describe as a socialist controlled economy and Maldonado seems to do OK and their ASN is represented on the FIA.

Secondly, name me the law or statute, European or otherwise, that prevents a sport's governing body determining the rules for who is entitled to compete and at what level.

I'm waiting......

[kipper]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

It has to be results based, that's the point and maybe just one per year could attain that status

I'd agree. Obviously, at the moment (in the UK, at least), licence signatures are (without wishing to over simplify things) on the basis of getting to a race unscathed. This would need to amended so that it becomes a necessity to have a podium, top six, etc.

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

Sadly for your plans, but probably fortunately for most of us, we don't live in a socialist controlled economy so those plans would never work, and are actually in breach of several competition laws.

I have to confess that my knowledge of competition law is somewhat limited; however, I'd argue that the above is more of a refinement of the existing system. Using single seaters as an example, British Formula Ford required a National B licence, the now disbanded Formula Renault UK a National A and British F3 an International C. As such there is already an acceptance that to race in a particular series, the driver has to have a certain level of experience (although, of course, subject to undertaking enough races a driver could skip from FF to F3 bypassing anything else). By formulating a progression system, it ensures that drivers have reached a suitable level of achievement to justify the step up.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by kipper

By formulating a progression system, it ensures that drivers have reached a suitable level of achievement to justify the step up.

Precisely.

And that gives the teams an incentive to compete for the best talent, not just the fattest wallet.

Given the vested interests involved and the inability of our governing body to even accept that there is a problem in the area of advancing genuine talent I doubt anything is likely to change. However one can live in hope.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

Sadly for your plans, but probably fortunately for most of us, we don't live in a socialist controlled economy so those plans would never work, and are actually in breach of several competition laws.

I don't think this impacts on any laws, this is only about defining a clear career path via improving the licensing system and making the series clearer and more relevant for career path drivers.

This is no different to other sports whereby you have to enter certain tournaments to obtain world ranking points, etc.

In snooker for example, I believe that only the top 16 players get automatic entry into the World Championships, with other players having to progress through official qualifying and ranking tournaments that count for their ranking.

From F1 team owners viewpoint, the drivers that emerge from this FIA ladder will be the best of their peers. One of the concerns that Gerhard Berger raised was that it was currently hard to compare peer drivers as they are diluted across too many series and often don't get to race against each other.

[davyboy]

But surely restricting categories on ability would make them even weaker than they already are ? There needs to be a category cull and an all out effort to eliminate all barriers to taking part... prime among which should be cost.

[ivanalesi]

True, but having a smaller pool of drivers with such license will make the teams to start searching for sponsors and the organizers will have no choice but to improve their product. Right now every single team has a driver not good enough in their lineups who brings a lot of budget and they got no worries. It's so easy Imagine the effect it might have on GP2 teams. No Richelmi, Leal, Canamasas, Rosenzweig, Trummer, Berthon, Varhaug, Binder or De Jong - they'll have to find the money by themselves as it was done in the past.

[BtccLee]

Motorsport News hit the nail on the had today. Single seater racing in the UK is looking healthier but the real test is 2014.

Also good to here interest in the truncated British F3...