AMR & Oreca: Slow diesels further, or we quit

[rustycrankshaft]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

Not watched the LMS so far this season? there driver squad make Enge look reliable.

nice

[acox93]

[TRuss]

Face it people...Diesels are superior engines. Just ask Gale Banks. In the new Popular Hot Rodding there is a diesel powered '70 Chevelle. The engine is a GM Duramax with honestly not much modification. 950 hp 1700 ft lbs and 32 mpg on used french fry oil. Sorry four stroke. As much as I love you the writing is on the wall. Just wait until super capacitors, modern chemistry batteries and brushless motors find their way into race cars.

[Dunlop Corner]

Well to be fair, the Judd and Aston Martin engine has not had nearly as big a development budget as the Peugout and Audi engines. Is the Judd at all better than the Audi R8 engine?
Unless somebody developes a petol engine on the same budget as what Audi and Pug has done, it should be no surprise that the diesels are faster. But as Kolles demonstrates, diesel is not an automatic ticket to victory lane.


Come to think of it, is the purpose of the Kolles effort to prove that diesel is not in fact that much better? :P

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Dunlop Corner

Well to be fair, the Judd and Aston Martin engine has not had nearly as big a development budget as the Peugout and Audi engines. Is the Judd at all better than the Audi R8 engine?
Unless somebody developes a petol engine on the same budget as what Audi and Pug has done, it should be no surprise that the diesels are faster. But as Kolles demonstrates, diesel is not an automatic ticket to victory lane.


Come to think of it, is the purpose of the Kolles effort to prove that diesel is not in fact that much better? :P

The Aston engine has had pretty decent development in GT1.

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by TRuss

Face it people...Diesels are superior engines. Just ask Gale Banks. In the new Popular Hot Rodding there is a diesel powered '70 Chevelle. The engine is a GM Duramax with honestly not much modification. 950 hp 1700 ft lbs and 32 mpg on used french fry oil. Sorry four stroke.

Yeah sure,what do you think would happen if the ACO allowed petrol engines 5,5L with twinturbochargers and these airrestrictors? Precisely,they'd blow them socalled fast diesels clean of the track.
Diesel being the cream of the crop at Le Mans in recent years is nothing short but intended by the ACO.

[rustycrankshaft]

Originally Posted by TRuss

Face it people...Diesels are superior engines. Just ask Gale Banks. In the new Popular Hot Rodding there is a diesel powered '70 Chevelle. The engine is a GM Duramax with honestly not much modification. 950 hp 1700 ft lbs and 32 mpg on used french fry oil. Sorry four stroke. As much as I love you the writing is on the wall. Just wait until super capacitors, modern chemistry batteries and brushless motors find their way into race cars.

In 1991 when I was a young lad, my dad took me to Le Mans for the first time. It was the scream of the Renown Mazda and in subsequent years, the roar of the Vipers that first inspired me and started my love of motorsport. Diesels might be the far superior engine under the current regs but I'm sure nobody is gonna be as blown away by the diesel whoosh as they are the first time they hear a Corvette power out of Arnage! Gasoline is still the future of sportscar racing and one of the main attractions for many people. Diesels have there place... in economical road going cars, and electric... well don't get me started on that! Whats the betting if the Pugs started running petrol powerplants next year, the rules would be changed very quickly to suit, to a point where gasoline was the far superior engine. What Aston and Oreca are trying to do is the same thing but obviously the ACO will tread carefully as long as the Peugeots and Pesca are running diesel.

[Gil Abobeleira]

Originally Posted by GTfour

Yeah sure,what do you think would happen if the ACO allowed petrol engines 5,5L with twinturbochargers and these airrestrictors? Precisely,they'd blow them socalled fast diesels clean of the track.
Diesel being the cream of the crop at Le Mans in recent years is nothing short but intended by the ACO.

Them, why are the rules of turbo engines and atmospheric engines different as well? (and have been since the demise of Group C)

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by rustycrankshaft

Diesels might be the far superior engine under the current regs but I'm sure nobody is gonna be as blown away by the diesel whoosh as they are the first time they hear a Corvette power out of Arnage!

now I don't disagree with you but I had to laugh when, with my father at the Classic last year I was told to look out for the Howmet because of its unique sound. The diesels may not be the most attention grabbing noise, but you can't argue that they're not a bit unique in the world of motorsport. I hope that one day I'll be able to show my kids an Audi R10 racing at a historic event and say "wait until you [don't] hear this one". (Admittedly, it's also possible that no modern racing cars will make glorious sounds by then but if that's the case then I probably wouldn't be watching anyhow).

I know rule-mongering the ACO is probably more cost-effective than developing the car further but they can't exactly do more than they already have now can they. The Acura is getting close to Audi's qualifying times in the US and the R10s are clearly struggling in the hands of a team without the quality/experience of the works drivers and, dare I say, team. So basically, stop moaning.

[Tim the Grey]

How many 'customer' Porsche teams won LM24, when Weissach turned up?

The Works boys play harder. No matter what you have, they WILL beat you, 9 times out of 10.

AMR are a low budget semi works team, IMHO. I think they are great, I am hoping for a win (I live 3 miles from Aston at Gaydon, 10 miles from Prodrive in Banbury!), but I really don't see it happening!

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Gil Abobeleira

Them, why are the rules of turbo engines and atmospheric engines different as well? (and have been since the demise of Group C)

Think about the most obvious difference between diesel and petrol technology...

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

The diesel advantage will be a thing of the past (quicker than you can say ACO) if there is even a hint of the Dancing Donkeys coming into sports car racing with a LMP1.

But if they do a proper job it wont neccesarily make The Aston and Oreca competitive.

[GTfour]

If pug wins this year,the dieselregs will be equalled,if not all the petrolboys are gonna have to loose a year more.

Diesel LMP's = The unfair advantage

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

How many 'customer' Porsche teams won LM24, when Weissach turned up?

There have been several times that Porsche's factory have been beaten by privateers. Admittedly, those privateers are the team that runs the Audis now though, so that only really supports the argument..........

[Gil Abobeleira]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

There have been several times that Porsche's factory have been beaten by privateers. Admittedly, those privateers are the team that runs the Audis now though, so that only really supports the argument..........

1985: that's once....

[Rodger Davies]

semantics. 'Though I was including '96 and '97 too.

[Gil Abobeleira]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

semantics. 'Though I was including '96 and '97 too.

I you are quite right, because I forgot those completely!!!

[Tim the Grey]

My case rests...

8^)

[henk4]

Originally Posted by GTfour

Yeah sure,what do you think would happen if the ACO allowed petrol engines 5,5L with twinturbochargers and these airrestrictors? Precisely,they'd blow them socalled fast diesels clean of the track.
Diesel being the cream of the crop at Le Mans in recent years is nothing short but intended by the ACO.

Perhaps those 5.5 liter turbo engines should have the same tank size and to make it even more interesting, they could also be required to produce the same noise levels as the diesels.....

[Tim the Grey]

*HORROR*

Please no! Perhaps the diesels should have to make as much noise as petrols?

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

*HORROR*

Please no! Perhaps the diesels should have to make as much noise as petrols?

Exactly Mr.Grey. If it were up to @henk4,all participating cars should be whisperquiet and if burning any kind of fossil feul,belch nice smelling flowers from the exhausts....

Anyhow,people who still think these diesel LMP's are faster because of diesel being such a good and efficient way of running a combustion engine,have their eyes closed on purpose. Everyone knows by now that it's nothing short of a publicity program from Audi and Pug to sell more dieselcars and to pretend that dieselengines are oohw so very green.

[acox93]

I would love to see the ACO put all the cars on a dyno and see just how big the power differance is. But like that would ever happen anyway.

[davehenrie]

I think a major advantage of the diesels lies with the low end torque they produce. When the R10 was first introduced, Henri Pescarolo's Judd powered cars were closer in qualifying trim than the actual race pace. The grunt of the diesel is not super important when you have a clean Q lap with no traffic, but when you are constantly balked by traffic AND have the radiators and ducts opened up, then the petrol engined cars just can't get back up to speed as quickly.

The added drag of the race setup vs a Qualifying tape job coupled with the added weight of a full fuel tank tends to highlight the importance of diesel power vs petrol.

It's kinda like the 80's in F1 where Ferrari still used V12 engines but Honda moved to the V10. The V12 consumed more fuel and so the Ferrari's had to carry more fuel to finish the race(no pitstops back then) Senna would leap away from Prost until the added weight of the Ferrari's fuel load came down. From then on it was a fairly equal fight, but Prost couldn't overcome the early advantage of Senna unless some outside factor happened. So most of the races were familiar, Senna jumps to an early lead and then maintained the gap as Prost's times got faster and faster but never fast enough to close the gap.

As long as Turbo diesel engines have that BIG bottom end, they will continue to have an advantage in traffic, and also do better overcoming drag and weight. As Kolles has shown, a diesel is not a GUARANTEE to sucess, but it sure paves the way.
dh

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by davehenrie

As long as Turbo diesel engines have that BIG bottom end, they will continue to have an advantage in traffic, and also do better overcoming drag and weight. As Kolles has shown, a diesel is not a GUARANTEE to sucess, but it sure paves the way.
dh

That remains my whole point,if petrol cars were allowed 5,5L twinturbo's,they'de have these kind of torque figures as well.
Maybe slightly less,but that would've been made up for in explosivity in the higher revband regions,something the diesels miss....

I just simply miss the real competition. Like the good ol' days...'98 for me.

[acox93]

It would be interesting to re-introduce a fuel formular instead of engine size and restrictor regs. Would the diesels still have an advantage then. I mean they would get better fuel mileage but would they be too far behind on pace for that to matter?