Spa 6 Hours 2005

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Note the comments about regs.In the case of the 6 hours the bit about motorhomes etc is nonsence The problem with the regs last year was due solely to FIA .It is fair to say that Alan and his gang run one of the best events on the calender and the comments are uncalled for and misplaced

Don't get me wrong John, the 6 Hours was one of my must do races each year. BUT, I have seen it in action. Cars running with roller rockers that shouldn't, being picked up after the race for the infraction, and then still sitting atop the podium after stern words from the officials. The fact that the team had 2 or 3 cars entered in other races at the same meeting and were a big outfit, helped the cause in my opinion.
Alain and his team do a great job with the 6 Hours. they just need to keep the GTS/P cars out. Cheating is rife in historic racing (not necessarily the 6 Hours) , and yet not a lot is done about it.

[simon drabble]

GTS/P cars are which? I think its a mistake to let the post 66 cars in but sportsracers are fine (speaking as an owner!!) I agree with the comments on rolling rockers and othersized engines in MGB's - its not hard, you run the car to the FIA spec....!

[Peter Mallett]

How oversized are the engines? MG homologated a 2 litre engine for Sebring in '65 IIRC.

[simon drabble]

so can you run 1950 engines in appdx k? if so why did the HSCC throw them all out?

[Peter Mallett]

Nope you can run a "2 litre". Slightly different and very fragile. You have to re-engineer the bores/waterways etc. However, I suspect they use the capacity as the guideline rather than the actual configuration.

No idea why the HSCC threw them out but let's be fair Lotus wasn't all that competitive against MGs in the 60's in anything but a short sprint. Yet now a good MGB can't compete with them.

BTW. Let's not go down the App K route again. The regs are there to be interpretted.

[simon drabble]

as a matter of interest are you comparing MGB v Elan S1 or 26R?

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Slippy Diff

heating is rife in historic racing (not necessarily the 6 Hours) , and yet not a lot is done about it.

too blimmin right it is ! and unfortunately it seems to be a case of you can't beat them so join them ! the down side is that enforcement takes time and costs money, therefore pushing up the cost of our entries, the FiA series is privcey, BUT you do get a lot of track time and you know cheats will get shredded at the end of the race !

unless of course your happy to cruise round at the back on your own, in which case you might as well not bother racing !!!

[zefarelly]

App K homologation stipulates configuration and weights of components with a permissable tolerance. HSCC saloons run to capacity, BUT have different configs, to free up revs to make more power basically (at least in ford engines), you can argue that all day long, but you only need to look how quick the cars are compared to legit FiA ones to see the difference.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

as a matter of interest are you comparing MGB v Elan S1 or 26R?

What was running in 63-65? And where did they finish in 64/65 Le Mans?

[simon drabble]

well I think both S1 and 26R were and of course any Lotus in Le MAns would have been a privateer after the french banned 23b....
re Zef's comments on capacity he is quite right for saloons but the Classic Sports Cars series is strict FIA
now of course most S1 are run to 26R spec and weight so the difference is nominal (except value!!) an FIA S1 and FIA MGB are siimilar value but a works MGB and genuine 26R are about the same as well

[zefarelly]

Is the MGB lump not a 3 bearing crank snapping tractoresque piece of kit ? or was it sorted in period ? a bit like the FJ's running 5 bearing kent blocks instead of 3 bearing

even the early prototype Lotus twink ran a 3 bearing at 1300cc or there abouts

[Peter Mallett]

3 Bearing is correct. They din't change until 1965. But there are modern materials to overcome the problems. For info the MGB finish 11th overall in 1964 at Le Mans ave speed 99.99mph or thereabouts. (Not having my books here I may have the date wrong). So longevity was never a problem.

BTW.

[zefarelly]

a lot of those engine where fairly agricultural and therefore tough (triumph TR3 was actually a tractor engine I believe ?) the Ford was probably one of the first to be designed on the light side, as was the Cortina . .the weight effectively gicing the car the performance boost over its rivals.

your dead right though, modern machining and material quality have all but eliminated most problems

which means we can thrash them in relative safety!!!

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

GTS/P cars are which?

prototypes

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I think its a mistake to let the post 66 cars in

Absolutely

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I agree with the comments on rolling rockers and othersized engines in MGB's - its not hard, you run the car to the FIA spec

To be honest I was not using MGB's as an example, but a GT40!! But I do remember MGB's being very very fast...........too fast for an 1800cc 4 pot.

[simon drabble]

if you look at the times the sub 3 minutes are sportsracers, gt40's and cobra's with gta's etc just on the cusp of 3 minutes. I dont have a problem with sportsracers because I am entering mine this year!!! Also they are fragile so its difficult to get them to the end and as anyone who has driven them will agree not that quick when the rain starts as they understeer (even if you knock off the anti roll bars). A good example of that was Donington Cloth cap when it was wet the e types etc were pulling away and when it dried out we all caught up (well I didnt because I was 2 laps down becaued I stupidly thought I would be clever and came in to knock the anti roll bars off then as we struggled with one saw it was drying and went out again having left them as they were - big lesson learnt - follow pit wall instructions rather than trying to decide tactics and race!)

[john ruston]

1800cc Twin Cams,Crossles 1965,2 litre BMW's etc of course people rearrange history.All pre 1965 Do you want weeks S26 or an original etc etc

[Peter Mallett]

Heh,

I know a bloke who built an 1800 twin cam MGA but he didn't race it in historics just the MGCC club championships.

As to modifications. I'm a bit ambivalent if its for safety or indeed longevity then why not? However if its for power enhancement then I have a problem with it.

The problem then comes with the question "what is safety/longevity related and what is just for enhancement?"

[simon drabble]

I hae to agree with JR about Crossle's - how many were made in period? It does seem very strange how they are popping up "from the States" with alarming regularity...
they are of course still being made in Ireland........

[zefarelly]

you can say the same for many cars Simon . . .I'm sure theres more Alfs GTA's, Lotus Cortinas, 23b's,GT40's etc etc now than there where 20 years ago.

make 3 bugattis from 1, theres 3 or 4 old No1 Bentleys and so on

quite possibly why the FIA changed the HTP format, it just became a mockery in its old format ?

[simon drabble]

the problem with sports racers is that it is so cheap to make one relative to the end value - to make a GTA from scratch would be ironically virtually the same as buying one! but in concept you are absolutely right

[zefarelly]

hence people asking for 50k plus for jazzed up Daganham dustbins or Milanese rustbuckets !!!

[simon drabble]

asking / achieving
2 seperate things!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

you can say the same for many cars Simon . . .I'm sure theres more Alfs GTA's, Lotus Cortinas, 23b's,GT40's etc etc now than there where 20 years ago.

make 3 bugattis from 1, theres 3 or 4 old No1 Bentleys and so on

quite possibly why the FIA changed the HTP format, it just became a mockery in its old format ?

Agreed except you might struggle with the GT40's. They were limited run. (By which I mean they are a unique monoquoque). Unless someone takes a Lola Ford and does a cut and shut on it.

But apart from being off topic I fail to see the connection with wanting to race a certain type of car and the selling price of same. The two whilst not being mutually exclusive aren't connected in my mind. I race a car I cana fford and if I sold it I know I'd lose on what I've spent. If someone only races cars that they want to sell, have they got their priorities right?

[zefarelly]

good point Peter, I'm like you, I have my fave car and I race it, If I got my money back because I had to sell it, I'd be very pleased, but I don't want to sell it.

[LAK]

Just a quick note to correct something which Simon stated. The Spirit Sebring "rules" state that "Recognised historic treaded tyres (no slicks) are acceptable to this series".

We checked with Julius re this (as we had to change the entry from our Falcon which runs on Dunlop L's to our Griffith which races on Yoki's) and Julius confirmed that we could run the tyres which are eligible for our historic championship. We run the Griffith with the HSCC Historic roadsports which allows Yokis and as such they were deemed eligible. It didn't matter anyway as the clutch failed in the Griffith in practice but I didn't want people to be confused with the Sebring race which is a bit different to the other Top Hat races.

We hope to be at Spa with the Falcon which we hope to get an entry for in the 6 hour race. Look forward to seeing everyone there.
LAK