33 Starters for Indy?

[Down F0rce]

I wonder if Penske will hire a driver for thier third car at all? They entered four last year...two Dallara, two G-Force...to give their drivers a choice of chassis. Thier third car is a G-Force...maytbe they will enter it in the race with it's own driver, to hedge thier bets? Or maybe it's just if the G-Force is more to the liking of Sam or Helio?

[climb]

Good point DF.
Actually tough to answer; in any case it would seem strange to me if, after having chosen Dallara chassis since now, Helio or Sam improvised a different choice.

[sgw2]

DRT,

I think my expectations are unrealistic. Even with the continued decline of Champ Car, its clear the size of its fan base, based upon nuetral polls (e.g., TV ratings are equally pathetic), is still maybe larger than Indy Cars in the US, and perhaps double that of Indy Car if you include Canada. A reality that is sobering.

In theory Adding road courses could more than double the size of the IRL fan base *if* every Champ Car fan converted to an IRL fan. But that wont happen. My rough guess, based on discussions with many Champ Car fans, is that support has softened considerably in the US, but not more than half would be willing to follow IRL when they add road courses. And if you figure only half those that would even consider it actually become fans, that still grows the IRL fan base some 25%. The vanishing act of OWRS/CART from US TV sets and race tracks also means that new fans, few that they are, will congregate toward that whcih they have access. Thus NASCAR will get most, but IRL will get some. OWRS wont get hardly any. That is where I get my 30-40% WAG.

But lets face it; bring Hornish and the IRL to Laguna Seca, Road America, and Long Beach, and you'll get a good sized crowd. Whether that reaches what CART could get at these tracks before 2000 (Laguna Seca and Road America drew only about 1/3 their pre-2000 crowds in '03) is not the point. Whatever they draw will be additional to what they have now.

I know diehard CARTisans have a hard time understanding this. But it is extremely difficult to understand how Champ Car can keep what is left of its fan base in the US, let alone grow it, as they lose a few more US races each year. The idea that you can have a large US audience with only a couple of rented tracks or few coastal city stret races is patently flawed. F1 has tried and failed with that formula. Out of sight, out of mind. Memories last only so long.

*********************************************************

Rush1,

The foriegn legion I believe has been drawn to Champ Car as series that can provide a chance to show the ability to race F1. IRL very clearly lacks that appeal, especially in Europe. While you may get the odd Kenny Bräck (drummed out of Europe after the last race F3000 incident with Jörg Müller), you wont get the top F1 prospect like Zanardi, Montoya, da Matta, Dixon, and Bourdais anymore. The next level of driver, whom Indy always attracted, is not such a lock to displace American prospects. Most top foriegn talent that has found its way into IRL has done so via CART (e.g., Dixon, Castroneves, Franchitti, Kanaan). But that channel should be chocked off with the exit of Champ Car from the US. OW, even in IRL will be chalk full of foreigners, but the young F1 prospect will not be occuppying the top seats by the end of this decade. That is what I mean by the thinning of the foreign legion.

[MLM]

Did you guys watch Speednews, either last night or today?
Robin M said N-H has 1 entry for the 500(with Bruno) and SB may be a possibility.

[sgw2]

correction:

"I don't think my expectations are unrealistic ..."

[D.R.T.]

Do you think with the emergence of RHR and AJ, that a resurgence of US fans in Tv and at race tracks is a possibility. And if these two start winning races, this can only be good. I think RHR could be quite a surprise for this season as well

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by D.R.T.
Do you think with the emergence of RHR and AJ, that a resurgence of US fans in Tv and at race tracks is a possibility. And if these two start winning races, this can only be good. I think RHR could be quite a surprise for this season as well

Unfortunatly, as good as these two guys are, I think its just to late to revive this series in the US. To many years without any American drivers, have killed interest here at home for Champ Cars. They should have seen this coming. I think OWRS going international is just a sign, that they realize there's just no market left here for them. RHR, and AJ, are to little, to late.

There terrible TV package won't help either, they'll be virtually invisible with Spike TV.

I hope S Africa, and S Korea are big hits for them, there going to need it...

[sgw2]

D.R.T.,

Not likely. There is no show case event. Kasey Kahne is getting all the publicity. CART/OWRS has lost so much following its hard to see the event fans tune in again. US races, even counting Long Beach - were many are not race fans -, drew only an average of 30K on race. So the exposure simply isn't there.

The advantage IRL has is the Indy 500. It is the one OW race that actually gets a TV audience the size of NASCAR. Champ Car no longer has any recognizeable American team owners besides Newman-Haas now; and they are running Indy too!

In terms of name recognition, Sam Hornish has 15-20x the level of RHR, and maybe 50x that of AJA. Buddy Rice has more name recognition as well. Winning a race in Mexico, or Australia simply wont make a line in most newspapers. But winning a race at an ISC, SMI or IMS publicity machines track will get posted in every town in the sticks.

As it is the odds are stacked, as RHR is on a "B" team and AJA a "C" team. PT, Junky and Sebs have the cars and the Engineering staff. If either of them win it'll be in some street race with rain or a bunch of accidents, probably deep into the NFL season when even race fans tune out.

The only hope another young American can get fame in OW is to get his mug on the Borg-warner trophy. Otherwise watch NASCAR create three or four new heros in the meantime.

[GP Racer]

Seems we posted at exactly the same time sgw2.

But we are in agreement...

[BootsOntheSide]

I gotta say taht you guys are probably right. Over-estimating open-wheel racing's popularity in the US is a dangerous thing. Not only will it require Ryan and AJ to win races (and quickly) they will need to be marketed properly, and, above all, stick around in ChampCars for a while.

[Tim Northcutt]

Word from Robin Miller last night on Windtunnel:

PDM closed its doors last friday, and with Hemelgarn looking at going in with Walker for a car in OWRS, there might not be 33 starters this year....

"Pay Drivers are allegedly going to have to bring somewhere between $500,000 and $1 million to the table to run...

Of course, this is from Robin Miller, but the guy has good sources here in Indy....

[rustyfan]

That Hemelgarn is looking at Champ Cars is nothing new, and from what I have read earlier he has said that he will do the Indianapolis 500, then move over.

But I guess it's the usual - we'll have to wait and see.

[sgw2]

There are 28 entries with drivers (counting Larry Fyt). If PDM is a no go, then you have 34 chasis/engine combos. Panther Racing will race their 3rd car #44; so that makes 29. Mo Nunn, who has the #21 without a driver, says the cost is prohibitive to lease a motor for just May. Autoweek goes on to say the cost ranges from $350,000 to $475,000 depending upon manufacturer. So Robin Miller is probably right that it'll take at least $500,000 to buy a ride.

That said, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised should Tony George broker a few deals to close the gap for the likes of Luis DÃ*az or perhaps Jeff Simmons. I expect that #66 Penske will be race under some other banner again. I also expect George will broker a deal with each fo the engine suppliers to supply one more car at reduced rate to fill the grid.

It'll be like last year. They'll get about 26-27 cars in the first day, have 2-3 more that wont do so for whatever reason. That Monday you'll see 3-4 more deals cut with Speedway intervention to get the field of 33, plus a backup just in case. Then Rbin Miller will write another anti-George peice that will place all the blame on IRL and George but will offer no course of action to improve things.

The moer things change ...

[gttouring]

Unification seems like a no brainer really
IRL and Champ cars are really one in the same now that USAC is really not a factor. who knows what the real answer is.
If F1 goes to a 2.4 litre V8( a champ 2.6 sans turbo?)
where does that leave IRL and Champcars as far as tech and all goes? 33 cars barely for indy is a sad sad thing...a common ground called the 2.65 L turbo engine needs to be used in all the chassis and George had better get off his High Horse and do it for the love of sport for crying out loud, the OWRS guys entertained it for as long as I saw possible and well it couldn't happen....

[rustyfan]

The IndyStar reports today that Hemelgarn has dropped its Indy 500 effort due to lack of sponsorship.

[Testure]

Hmmm, it's very sad to see small teams like these not being able to compete, but I think it was an inevitable consequence of the old CART teams moving over and, especially, the engine manufacturers coming on board. Can't have your cake and eat it...

It's not over yet, though. There's still time to get more cars on the grid. There's enough chassis floating around and, maybe, enough engines. I guess that Tony George must have enough cash squirrelled away that he can fund a few cars and have 33 runners. Is that likely to happen, though?

Part of me is wondering though - Honda and Toyota came to the IRL, really, to win the Indy 500, right? But don't the realise that it's being devalued (well, at least a little) by things like no bump day, etc?

[rustyfan]

One must not forget that the overall economy isn't exactly on a high right now either. Even NASCAR are having trouble filling their grids, being forced to resort to 'field fillers' that show up sometimes even without a pit crew and runs a few laps before parking it due to "mechanical problems".

The recent engine change as well as the chassis modifications kit hasn't helped either (in terms of expenses), which is why I believe it will stabilize towards the end of the year and become better for next year.

[Javi]

It´s the first time i post on this forum (I usually do in sportscar one), but I´ve been following IRL since its beginings in 1996. I remember those early years when IRL was supposed to be a formula "more affordable formula dedicated to american teams and racers". (BTW, I am sure something like this has been posted and answered before, sorry, but...). Now the small american teams fall over because of the same reasons that left CART in those early nineties. What´s your opinion about IRL future?

[rustyfan]

While the IRL did keep true to the original vision in the beginning, it was also bound to evolve into something different when the time came. To believe that it would stay the way it was forever, being an almost minor-league championship, is a bit naive if you ask me.

It's just a shame a lot of people can't grasp the concept of 'evolution' and use it as an excuse to attack the IRL. Note that this isn't a stab against you Javi, but rather a more general stab against those whining about it (including a certain Mr. Miller).

As for the future, I personally believe the IRL has a quite stable foundation to build on at the moment. Could be better in terms of car count, obviously, but at the same time it's not bad either, and most teams have solid sponsorships. Going road racing next year will only help attract drivers, teams and sponsors, so I'm positive about the future.

Just my two cents.

[racer69]

A shame they have gone by the wayside, but i'd hardly worry about less than 33 cars on the grid. Everyone was saying the same last year but they had 33, the same will happen again this year (getting 33 starters).

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally posted by racer69
A shame they have gone by the wayside, but i'd hardly worry about less than 33 cars on the grid. Everyone was saying the same last year but they had 33, the same will happen again this year (getting 33 starters).

Added notes...

PDM also was confirmed in that Indy Star story as being "out" of this year's Indy 500....and they have closed the doors and put their assets up for sale...

Beck Motorsports has the car and the engine, but no driver or sponsorship finalized....

Panther & Mo Nunn have the extra cars entered (that aren't back-ups) and I believe that Foyt also had entered a third set of cars....didn't he???

Ganassi, Penske and Cheever have definitely indicated that they are not interested in running more cars than what they have entered "at this time" (my quote)....


The Keys to 33:

1. Is 33 really "just another number" to Tony G.??? because it will take his involvement to make 33 cars happen....

2. Since the rumor has been swirling for some time now that Honda seems to be the "deep pockets" and the "ATM machine" that has brought teams from the other Series, etc., would they work a deal or two in order to get some more Honda power on the grid....if the right driver could be put in a ride??? I'm talkin' people like
-- John Andretti (but I'd see him as a maybe in the 3rd Foyt car)
-- Richie Hearn
-- Luis Diaz
-- Jeff Simmons (another maybe in the 3rd Foyt car)
-- Buddy or Jacques Lazier

Bottom Line:

It'll sure take someone's money to get the 33 cars in the field....it won't happen by itself....

[Down F0rce]

As you'll have to doubt read elsewhere, Hemelgarn has pulled out. So offically we have 33 entries now. Just need some drivers...

[Tim Northcutt]

As has PDM....they did close their doors last Friday....

Both Hemelgarn and PDM shared the headline on the Indy Star's sports page as the two withdrawals from the Indy 500....both made the news public yesterday....

Concerning Drivers....

There will be plenty of talent, helmets in hand, for rides in May....

The real key will be who has some $$$ or a sponsor to bring along to help fund the seat....

I listed just a few of them above....

Other names could be added to that list...

Max Papis readily comes to mind....for just one more name to toss around....

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by rustyfan
While the IRL did keep true to the original vision in the beginning, it was also bound to evolve into something different when the time came. To believe that it would stay the way it was forever, being an almost minor-league championship, is a bit naive if you ask me.

It's just a shame a lot of people can't grasp the concept of 'evolution' and use it as an excuse to attack the IRL. Note that this isn't a stab against you Javi, but rather a more general stab against those whining about it (including a certain Mr. Miller).

As for the future, I personally believe the IRL has a quite stable foundation to build on at the moment. Could be better in terms of car count, obviously, but at the same time it's not bad either, and most teams have solid sponsorships. Going road racing next year will only help attract drivers, teams and sponsors, so I'm positive about the future.

Just my two cents.

Thats a great post rusty!

Can you think of one racing series that hasn't evolved into something totally different than it started out? I can't, but in case you can, I guarantee you, that series won't be around for long.

The changes in the IRL are inevitable. How they make, and handle those changes will be the key to its success or failure.

[climb]

Even F1 is discussing about changes that are supposed to be way more radical, and rightly nobody find it scandalous.