Channel crossings

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by chunder

Lock your trailers and have a good check before you levae the train or ferry is my advice as these scum will do anything, ANYTHING to get into the UK. Lock your van doors, check under, over every panel befoe you leave.

It might pay to do the same when leaving the UK.
Chunnel staff were rather surprised by the number of people they found trying to sneak out of the UK following the enforcement of Passport checks on people exiting the UK!

[grantp]

I wonder if "the authorities" have considered operating a few trucks as decoys?

Make them easy to access (although from photos it is probably the case that none are too difficult to get into for a determined traveller), wait for them to pick up " a load" and then head off to the south rather than onto a ferry or train.

There must be some suitable destinations.

Russia?

Ukraine?

So long as the units could be completely secured before leaving the port area successful redistribution of the load should not be too difficult.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Chunnel staff were rather surprised by the number of people they found trying to sneak out of the UK following the enforcement of Passport checks on people exiting the UK!

Coming home, if you can reach the ferry or tunnel check-in without slowing down, and haven't stopped for last 100km, then probably safe from unwelcome passengers hitching a ride. (Although have heard rumours of migrants in service areas around Brussels....) Problems stem from when stationary or moving slowly, it would seem. I've been lucky that on recent trips have never had to queue on dual carriageway outside port. That must be scary. Timing arrival to miss 'Rush hour' a good idea.....

[bella]

chunder, i think plenty of us have seen people trying to get onto car lorries in person - i know of several teams who have had them removed at customs. you're preaching to the converted here!

to be fair if you drive with your belly lockers and trailer unlocked you're a fool anyway, everyone's got a "you only do that once" story of having to pull over to close one that had flung itself open on the m1. er, so i've heard

so if you have a private artic you reckon you don't need to queue for stack?

mike - i had to do the queue round the canal road at dunkerque a few weeks ago, that was tedious. but aside from one or two walking down the autoroute there were no shady characters except for the ones holding the steering wheels

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by bella

to be fair if you drive with your belly lockers and trailer unlocked you're a fool anyway.

so if you have a private artic you reckon you don't need to queue for stack?

mike - i had to do the queue round the canal road at dunkerque a few weeks ago, that was tedious. but aside from one or two walking down the autoroute there were no shady characters except for the ones holding the steering wheels

First paragraph- Agree, but apparently normal trailers have been broken into by breaking the hinges when locks proved too strong for the migrants! Soft covers are just slashed open....

2nd- An artic is an artic, regardless of what tax it is paying!

3rd- know what you mean.....

[YorkshireLad]

Feel sorry for all the truckers must be soul destroying, as for the immigrants its a tough call. Cheapest and easiest option is to remove what their coming here for. Secondly make the ferry ports totally sealed.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by YorkshireLad

Cheapest and easiest option is to remove what their coming here for. Secondly make the ferry ports totally sealed.

Exactly this but the government is too weak to do anything about it. They interviewed a woman the other day on the BBC, she was one of the 30 that came over in the container to Tilbury where he husband died. She's now settled here with her brood of kids, she doesn't speak a word of English and no doubt being given everything by the state. Why weren't they sent back to Afghanistan? It's no use Call me Dave saying we're not going to give them anything and not let them stay and then we do.
I'm not too sure it'd be possible to totally seal the ports but I'll gladly be proved wrong.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

Exactly this but the government is too weak to do anything about it. They interviewed a woman the other day on the BBC, she was one of the 30 that came over in the container to Tilbury where he husband died. She's now settled here with her brood of kids, she doesn't speak a word of English and no doubt being given everything by the state. Why weren't they sent back to Afghanistan? It's no use Call me Dave saying we're not going to give them anything and not let them stay and then we do.
I'm not too sure it'd be possible to totally seal the ports but I'll gladly be proved wrong.

If only it was that simple, Tim. The overwhelming majority of these "asylum seekers" , both legal and illegal, arrive on our shores without documentary proof of their country of residence. The UK, no matter how tough a stance that we want to take, are unable to return the immigrants until the government of their home country has confirmed that the individual is one of theirs. This is a UN charter, and in theory at least, applies to virtually every state in the world.

And whilst all the formalities are completed, and China is one of the worst countries for delaying the process, the UK has to place a roof over the heads of these migrants, and provide the wherewithal to feed them, which is supposed to be done by way of non-cash redeemable vouchers. This same sort of regime exists is supposed to exist throughout the EU, but there are a few countries who just let them wander off, Greece being one.

[Mike Bell]

I did hear or see in media of some sort that reason a lot of the migrants are trying to get to UK is that they have been turned down when applying to stay in France. No idea if that is truth or fiction.....

[Tim Falce]

I think the main reasons will be, a lot of them speak English, they have relatives here and they think it's the golden ticket which compared with what they have, it is.
I suppose one benefit is the price of car washes will only get cheaper.

[bauble]

One's sympathy if one has any left, fades when you see that virtually everyone you see on the TV is young and male, if they were genuine asylum seekers where are the women and kids? We have enough people sponging off the State of our own without importing 100's more of selfish types.

These are the very people who should be in their own country trying to put things to rights for the benefit of the weaker members of their community they have left behind.

Charity is fine if targeted at those who need it, but not for the benefit of healthy fit young males looking for an easy life in the UK.

Now I think that bananas are imported in sealed containers filled with poison gas to kill deadly spiders ........ something less toxic?

[Tim Falce]

I think there are plenty of women and kids and kids alone Bob, I've seen a couple of reports that Kent social services is overloaded with about 600 migrant children to sort out.

[delta]

Let's face it when bob geldoff started swearing on the tele all those years ago we all put our hands in our pockets and gave money . So I'm sorry but let these poor people in . We all have a nice life and moan about getting the flu but nothing can compare to what they have been through . I guess I going to start something on here but that's what I believe we should do . Now do I hit the send button or not . ???

[PeterMorley]

Perhaps Call me Dave would do well to be a bit more honest about what life is like in the UK - given the immigrants are unlikely to become bankers etc. they will be as well off in other countries.
Which might explain why there are so many more in other countries...
Instead of promoting the life of the top few why not show them some of the (many) programmes about people living on benefits etc., the grass might not look so green then - or force feed them Jeremy Kyle, Jeremy himself should be enough to put people off let alone the 'guests on his show.
Apart from language, the UK's lack of id cards also makes things easier for such people...

[Mike Bell]

Appears the ex MFL workers / strikers want to grab the headlines back from the Migrants- dual carriageway blocked by piles of burning tyres yesterday.......

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by delta

Let's face it when bob geldoff started swearing on the tele all those years ago we all put our hands in our pockets and gave money . So I'm sorry but let these poor people in . We all have a nice life and moan about getting the flu but nothing can compare to what they have been through . I guess I going to start something on here but that's what I believe we should do . Now do I hit the send button or not . ???

I have never put my hand in my pocket for any of Geldof's self publicising schemes or anything that has anything to do with Africa, I doubt the money actually gets to where it's supposed to go anyway, ask Gordon Sumner.
Iain, if you think we should let them over how would you feel about having just one family of them living with you for a while, say a year until they can get on their feet all at your own expense?
The problem is they need feeding, clothing, to be housed, given medical care and education and given money to live on. The country isn't big enough to take the amount of migrants that would come here if we have an open door policy.

[chunder]

If we had an open door policy this country would descend into ruin.

We have already had it with Eastern Europe and it has totally transformed our country and some towns in our country.

You only have to look at the popularity of UKIP in the election and the amount of people that voted for them( not seats they won, votes they garnered) to realise how pivotal this referendum coming is going to be, in most places they had tens of thousands of votes and in some areas in Lincolnshire and Norfolk where they are literally taking over towns they nearly won the vote.

It is an immense problem.

Quite what we are supposed to do I do not know. I really think it is about time we stopped being the worlds doormat and stood up for ourselves. We do not have the resources, room or actually the kindness anymore. These poeple could go to Holland, Belgium, Eastern Europe, Italy, Spain, POrtugal, but they all want to come here.

I have no feelings for these people, they are scroungers and thieves who are breaking OUR laws to come here because they know or they have been told it is a soft touch. Theya re not desperate at all. Not in the way people who are starving are.

You have to be cruel to be kind, and somewhere down the line Britain is touted as the place to be.

if we opened the doors our country would cease to be.

if you want that, you deserve to go and live where they come from.

[grantp]

If, as is alleged in the press, the people spending a few months travelling from their home country to the UK are spending several thousand pounds with traffickers to get the result then something here does not make sense.

Where does that money come from?

Who is pitching the idea that the UK is the place to head for? Someone must be encouraging those making the journey - this is clearly economic migration in most cases and little if anything to do with asylum

It that is so then there are far better ways that our government could bow to the inevitability that there will be migrants arriving and their acceptance of it on our behalf.

For a start for the amounts mentioned for "travel costs" airlines could provide a Business Class service and still make a good profit. Plus they would surely be favoured carriers when it came to flying in the migrant's family a little later.

Secondly it would offer some sort of half chance to try to identify exactly who is arriving and whether they are who and what they claim to be. Likewise their claimed dependents when that time arrives.

Thirdly the entire situation would be and probably is a perfect way for dodgy operators (whether criminal, political or terrorists) to get their influence into the country. That's not great in the short term but what happens in the longer term could be of significance for the younger members of our current society no matter their origin. So our kids will get the rough end of the deal.

Bearing in mind that Africa is forecast to be the source of rapid population growth in the next few decades. Unless there is rapid and successful economic development in all parts of Africa the pressure for the growing population to want to move somewhere else will be enormous, especially when there is a proven, established route to do so.

Recently China has been very actively courting influence and ownership in Africa. So economic development there is very much tied in with what the Chinese intend to do and how well they can and do fund it. If they get it wrong from a potential migrant's perspective the economic migrant problem will not be reduced - unless, of course, the options available are no better than those to be found "at home".

We hear the terms "Social mobility" quite often but rarely does anyone associate it with downwards rather than upwards movement. They should.

There is no good reason to assume that the "Chinese Economic Miracle" will persist let alone encourage the Chinese leaders to do anything to prevent or discourage a rapidly growing labour pool to hang around when they probably don't need it.

In general mass migration has mostly been "successful" when the migrants arrive with the intention of integrating, in the main, with the social structure and culture of the hosting country or when the migration is in effect an invasion and one set of social standards is replaced with another set.

On that basis one has to wonder whether the UK in the 21st century offers any sort of solid social framework that newcomers can identify and adapt to. More likely they will feel comfortable keeping to what they know thus importing most of the problems they are, apparently, trying get away from back "home".

Whether one is pro or anti mass migration is not the real issue here, in my opinion. The bigger problem is that whatever happens will be chaotic for lack of planning and forethought and the results are unlikely to beneficial to anyone - except those who find a way to make money out the mess that results from the chaos.

[Mike Harte]

The problem with some of the above is that the figures just don't back up your statements. The reality is that the only about 5% of the migrants head to the UK. The largest proportion, some 60%, actually arrive in Germany, with Sweden and even Norway receiving more than the UK.

The problem is all about perceptions. Turn on a TV, a radio or pick up a newspaper, and you will see pictures and hear stories about the "thousands" of migrants attempting to get on to the lorries and trains bound for the UK; it's big news because there is not a lot else going on in the world right at this moment.

What you don't see is the steady flow of migrants that are crossing other borders, such as from Croatia into Hungary. Why? Because there are hundreds of mile along which to cross, and they are not funnelled into a small area such as the terminals of Calais.

As for allowing them to fly in so that you know where they have come from, you might not be surprised to know that those that actually can afford to fly in often seem to have lost all their documentation by the time that they step off the plane (I must assume that they had to have had it to get on to the plane in the first instance), and so the Border Agency cannot return them from whence they came.

As for the migrants paying the traffickers to arrive in the UK, many of them have only managed to raise the money by borrowing from the very people that are trafficking them, and usually end up working in the "black" economy for the gangs that got them into the country in order to pay them back. However, there are always exceptions.

[grantp]

Mike,

I am aware of the reported figures for migration into the rest of Europe but we are discussing the effects on the UK related to the disruption in Northern France and Calais.

Germany has long been accustomed to Guest Workers but even they are seeing some problems with the numbers and much that goes on in Germany is not reported in the UK.

Irrespective of which country takes how many migrants the situation at the ferry and channel ports suggests that plenty of travellers feel that it's worth the extra distance and hassle to try to get to the UK. If reports are to be believed the French authorities seem to encourage such enthusiasm.

By comparison with land mass and population estimates France is quite an empty landmass. Germany too. The cities are looking crowded but there are large areas that have been de-populating, especially in the former East Germany.

Sweden used to tell everyone else what to do but now seems to be recanting and seeming to take a lead. The change form hot to cold country must be a challenge for migrants and may in fact have health consequences that are not yet realised but Sweden seems more keen to appear to be relaxed about encouraging the movement of people around the world than it might have been 2 or 3 decades ago.

On the other hand the established Swedish population is not necessarily keen on handing over their lives to an ever more assertive incoming group of cultures that do not entirely fit in seamlessly.

The Norwegians have always done their own thing and are perhaps slightly embarrassed by their North Sea Oil and Gas wealth. They feel a need to be generous and as yet do not seem to believe their country is overcrowded by its 4million population.

If we in the developed nations wish to atone for the problems we have encouraged in the Middle East then so be it but at least handle the atonement using methods that provide some controls to understand who it is that is arriving and what potential benefits or risks they bring with them. That way one can make at least a few plans for dealing with the effects, helping to resolve the tribal social problems that caused the problems in the first place (assuming that anything can be done about them and hoping they don't also arrive here in undiluted form with the incomers).

Of those making their way from Africa, particularly East Africa, one can only wonder if they should be welcomed with open arms for their drive, vision and commitment to succeed or worried by their seemingly limitless ability to be sucked in by people traffickers. Or some such similar set of concerns.

If they are motivated and industrious all well and good but we might consider that we are robbing the originating countries of some of the very people they will need as Africa transitions through a period of rapid population growth and, presumably, industrialisation of some sort.

Perhaps they will learn skills that they will at some point take back to fulfill new and better opportunities in their traditional family lands as Africa develops. If so that might represent a huge benefit to everyone ... but is such an object part of any forward planning that might exist in some obscure government department somewhere?

Unlikely I would have thought. The industrialisation of Africa seems to be the very last thing the Green leaning Western World is hoping to promote.

As for the published numbers for different countries - personally I would not trust any of them.

The Germans, for example, will be very efficient at counting heads and processes but may not be entirely open about what happens afterwards and whether people, once in Europe officially, stay in Germany or head elsewhere.

In the UK the chances are that the official numbers will not take into account (accurately) those who gain access by indirect means or short term visas and then disappear. It's the sort of administrative challenge that is not conducive to transparency.

So, whatever planning s going on and associated policies are being created the most likely probability is that they will be less effective than would be desirable under an circumstances.

That's not good for anyone, existing tax payer or incoming potential future wealth generator.

IMO.

[Mike Bell]

Er, P&O have tweeted that Operation Stack was stood down (for the weekend I assume) at 1805hrs. From the amount of exclamation marks following the announcement, seems they are pleased with the decision!

Wonder how long before it is re-instated? It was Tuesday during this last week from memory......

[jcdeleted]

Originally Posted by delta

Let's face it when bob geldoff started swearing on the tele all those years ago we all put our hands in our pockets and gave money . So I'm sorry but let these poor people in . We all have a nice life and moan about getting the flu but nothing can compare to what they have been through . I guess I going to start something on here but that's what I believe we should do . Now do I hit the send button or not . ???

Delta

Thank you for choosing to hit the "send" button. A bit of humanity should never go amiss, even though it will undoubtedly be abused by some. Most of us know there are no easy answers to these issues, including, I suspect, the politicos who pretend that there are. I hope I don't sound too pompous, but I have drink taken. Hope the two BDC drivers are relatively O.K. In vino, hopefully, veritas.
Regards to all posters. jcdeleted

[midgetman]

Oops sorry wrong thread.

[Moosehead]

Lets not forget that the migrants have been at Calais for years now. However, it was the MyFerryLink debarcle which has kicked all this off and the migrants are just taking advantage. From what I've read (online so its questionnable!) its was the monopolies lot that buggered MFL but thats now conveniently been forgotten as the migrants are getting all the headlines.

[terence]

Mostly the problems with immigrants were caused by Blair.Relatives calling back home telling everyone how softer ttouch the uk is.Thats why they all make the journey as for raising three to five grand for the illegal trip across the med-thought it very fificult to earn any money back home? RIP GB