More Mad Marshalling

[ascarracinguk]

just out of interest, what do you see the biggest thing that has changed in the attitudes of marshals, is it lack of training, common sense, wrong type of person ie jus want to get in as a free bee at the big meetings,ive been marshalling for about 8 years now, i havent noticed a change in marshalling standards at club meetings, but at bigger meetings, it can sometimes attract the wrong breed (sounds arrogant but not meant to be) which are jus there for a free day out. i also dont like the new grading system.....to be its overly complicated, and marshals can progress too quickly, i had one guy who got his signatures within half a year, progressed to an experienced marshal and had done less meetings than some trainees ive had!...at least with the old system we had white, green, red and io, you could generally judge people then on their experience level. having said that ive done 8 years and i havent upgraded to IO yet, main reasons, i CBA/ cant get the signatures because there arent enough XO's to get them off and i dunno jus doesnt appeal to me being an IO...having said that it may well be time to upgrade sooner rather than later!....im an IO most of the time these days anyway....might as well get a shiny badge to say i am LOL!

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Dan Friel

.

Surely it's a bit of a vicious circle involving the following:

1. Marshals - over use of the waved yellow.. leading to..
2. Drivers - ignoring the majority of waved yellows..
3. Senior officials - not being able to enforce due to scale of problem..
4. Drivers - having to retain speed to keep up with all those not slowing (and getting away with it).
5. Marshals - over waving every incident due to mass abuse..
6. etc..

6. Dumbing down of Yellow Flag rules meaning flag marshals can no longer use them properly to warn drivers (or give stationary advance warning of a problem).
7. etc

[ascarracinguk]

yeh i dont think ive come across an incident in 8 years that a waved yellow was used when it wasnt needed...think its clear cut either it is or isnt...

[Richard Sneader]

I agree with alot of comments on this thread and disagree with alot too. Al I respect your views always mate but should you be sending out marshals as the PC. Thats the IO's job role as the blue book does say Observers(I know before anyone jumps down my throat) are the eyes and ears of the CofC and not to be directly involded in any incidents. They are to report what they see and recieve.
RW's comments are all valid and when numbers permit we should get back to basics.
If anyone is being advised not to go out on a live track at any time then pack your bag up or do flagging. We have a job to do of intervention so lets show this off to the world and I agree with safety in mind. We are not talking about adrenalin fulled marshals etc but sensible assessments and getting the job done. Red flags and safety cars are 1 reason we have no lunches and late finishes.
Have a think of past incidents you were at and just looked at it. Could you/team have dealt with it before a SC or red flag was deployed thus saving them going out?
I do think rightly or wrongly that with some individuals upgrading far to quick on the new scheme they do have an experience and more importantly knowladge gap and I have seen evidence of this. Perhaps this is one of the problems. Not having the skills but put in charge all of a sudden because you hold an experienced grade but really you have done say 50 days and had 5 incidents the whole time. Rememebr currently signatures are for attending and then you do the training days and have your on post assessment. See what I am saying
Take responsibiity for your own learning : dont upgrade asap because your mate holds that grade or you feel inferior because you are a trainee etc.
I could go on but will save it for training days that I am teaching at.
The other side of the coin is I have seen marshals do things delibratly dangerous and the PC let them doing it.
I can think of 1 meeting this year on the second day, 4 marshals sat down on deck chairs by the armco gap all day. Nothing done about it. Is this taking responsibility for your own safety let alone others!!
This was such an issue I recived a couple of e-mails from marshals with seriuos concerns on this. I passed it all to the relavent CM.
Perhaps those of us that can, need to get a bit stricter(if thats th corrct word) with some of the more dangerous aspects people do and improve the discipline. I have also seen people chatting on phones, listening to Ipods with ear peices and my list could go on.

[numbersix]

We seem to talking in absolutes here. Marshals who do go onto a live track, versus those who think live = stay where you are.

It's not like that. Sometimes we think the risk is worth it, sometimes not. We do a good job one day, could do better the next. Different day = different decision.

Personally I'd rather run on to clear an F1 problem than I would some other races. Having said that, marshals get a feel for the drivers in a race fairly quickly, and some races are great from the point of view of marshal-driver confidence. Others are not.

As an I/O I take on board the weather, the type of cars, whether they are bunched or singles, general competence of the drivers that day, whether I'm slow because of last night's curry, whether my team are experienced or not, time before the end of the race, how well I know the circuit and the type of problem and what risk that problem poses to drivers. It's a continuous risk assessment based on many factors and sometimes, I screw up! As a PC I do the same thing in spades, particularly the screw up bit. I have to say that I screw up on the side of caution - there are others in my care and I want them to drive home in a car, not an ambulance. There's fine line between heroism and stupidity and I don't really want either in my team or on the track.

It is impossible to make a judgement on someone else based on one event, one video, one comment, one anything. At the end of the day, whether PC or I/O, two things I know. First, I'm responsible for my decision, no-one else. Two, my decision is often wrong, slow, open to bribery and subject to strange whimseys; but it's a decision - live with it.

Happy Christmas guys & gals. Here's to a great season.

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by RichardW

Much as I respect Mr Heads, if 'we're not going out without a SC', why do we bother to come along at all? Look at Zandvoort now - no intervention marshals - FIVs only.
Anyone remember DTM at Brands? Bumper on track - lots of gap - no marshal moved - Germans sent an FIV which parked by the marshals post and the driver went onto the live track, retrieved the bumper and drove off. How embarassing for the reputation of British marshals can it get?
Unless we're there do do a job, I say stay at home. It's drier, warmer and safer. Marshalling - in my view - is about intervention response - not just getting in for free and getting a good seat to watch from. Sorry everyone, but our standards have slipped badly and we need to reverse this trend. URGENTLY, IMHO!

read what I said Richard..
that comment to the CoC was made only after my assesment that a certain race series was showing absolutely no regard to the double yellows at Post3 whilst my guys were out there.
As for the DTM intervention team, when they were opposite post 4 doing one of their overly rapid (IMHO) interventios they came within a foot of getting wiped out.
I'm not going to get into a slagging match on 10ths but,as they say, the other post's incidents are the easiest to deal with.

[Dutch chap]

I believe I was one of the first, if not the first, in this thread to question the phrase “mad marshalling”.

For those who don’t know me (most of you, but Alisdair, Richard and Richard do know): I used to be a marshal at Zandvoort since 1978 and joined your forces in the UK on a more or less regular basis from 1994 till 2006, including 5 or 6 BGP’s, with 2 annual trips after that in 2007 and 2008 to Brands for the Festival .

The reason for me to travel to the UK was the belief at that time that I could learn something from you, the way you handled incidents. Believe me: in Holland we HAD a lot to learn!

Together with quite a few enthusiastic marshals in Holland I worked to get the OCA (well known to some of you) up to your level of marshalling. After a lot of hard work through many years we succeeded in this. We left the shame of the Roger Williamson incident behind us (if one ever can…) and reckoned ourselves among “the best of the world”, as you did and unfortunately still do.

The main reason for me to skip marshalling is that since those great years things have changed and not for the better. Marshals simply didn’t do anymore what they were supposed to do: act! Great fellow marshals, the best in their specific duty, lost interest and simply did not show up anymore. Simply because they were not allowed anymore to do what they were good at: marshalling! So they gave up. We lost the best and the rest kept struggling on.

H&S regulations, stupid ideas about what is safe and what is not, “better play it by the book, so you can’t be hold responsible”, that lousy attitude took over and it couldn’t be stopped. So, we lost it. At Zandvoort we (they, I must say nowadays) are back to the level of 1973. That is exactly the situation you are facing now. It’s not just the quantity of marshals that are falling, it’s, far more important, the quality that is going downhill and quite rapid too!

Please be aware that marshalling, especially incident handling, is not a science. It’s an art form. There was a time I considered myself as “quite good’ at it. It took me about 15 years to get to that level. You just can’t get to such a level in just a couple of seasons. It takes years. To achieve this you need to learn, learn a lot, from your fellow marshals, older, wiser, more experienced. You have to learn to work, relying on your instincts rather than rules, and gain experience.

Re the going on a live track: a racing car is less than 2 m wide and max. nearly 5 m long. How much room do you need for yourself, standing on a live track, to be sure you’re save? About 2,5 m will do, as long as you make sure you’re in the middle of that thing coming towards you, and be sure you are fast enough to make 2 big steps to either side, simple. Now, I don’t advocate that you actually get it down to that limit (would be more than a bit absurd), but the way marshals act (or don’t, actually) nowadays is absurd too.

As mentioned by others: what do you think is the whole purpose of you’re being there?

If the general attitude doesn’t change very soon, I’m sorry to predict the UK marshalling scene is going so far downhill that you will not be taken notice off anymore, meaning: replacing flagmarshals by lights and coursemarshals by FIV’s. PC’s can forget about their judgment too: the CoC has his screens to decide from and can well do without your advice. This is what happened in Holland and you can expect the same if you don’t get your act together. That’s not for now or next year, but do nothing about it NOW and you’ll be surprised within 5 years to come, or maybe sooner than that.

Sorry.

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Richard Sneader

I agree with alot of comments on this thread and disagree with alot too. Al I respect your views always mate but should you be sending out marshals as the PC. Thats the IO's job role as the blue book does say Observers(I know before anyone jumps down my throat) are the eyes and ears of the CofC and not to be directly involded in any incidents. They are to report what they see and recieve.
RW's comments are all valid and when numbers permit we should get back to basics.

Rich, who carries the can if the course marshals get hurt, IO or PC?

I devolve a lot of the decision making regards incidents to my IO but will always reserve the right to veto. The comment that seems to get yours and Richards knickers so twisted was an exception to the norm. PS we don't all have to wear our knickers outside our probans in order to be "good" marshals.

I will not send my guys out when I percieve that a group of drivers are not giving us a sufficient margin of safety.
Just look at autosport's pictures of the year - my IO and course marshal went out to that upside down burning Lotus and did a grand job -but while it was still under local yellows, with the doctors car, CoC car and the rescue unit in attendance some drivers were still not fully in control of their cars.

As for that damn CCTV - a lot of time someone from the course cars says something like "well it did'nt look too bad on the monitor" or vice versa
too true mate CCTV is killing the art of a good marshal

[Woolley]

An interesting debate stirred up here, and a lot of good points, so I'll add my thoughts here, and they're not quite the same as those above. Please bear with me while I tell you a story.

Once upon a time I became a trainee circuit marshal, having a reasonable amount of experience of speed events and so some reasonable incident handling skills. I started at Donington, and soon after at Mallory.

At every event there were enough marshals, generally half a dozen per post. A large portion of these were 'Red' badges who'd been around a while, and most of whom were perfectly capable I/Os. In fact, there were I/Os spare, happy to be simple incident marshals.

As a newbie, I was generally paired with one of these old hands and they passed on the benefit of years of experience, taught me how to collect debris safely and how to treat any incident. If something happened, we dealt with it and the drivers knew we would be out there an mostly reacted properly. Becoming a course marshal - Green badge - was the work of a couple of years, Red at least another one. No 'experienced' marshal after 15 meetings and expected to be able to I/O and flag with the best of them. It's what industry would have called an apprenticeship. We didn't need 'sending out', we were working alongside someone who knew what to do and would do it off their own initiative. In short, most posts had 3 or 4 I/Os who would run the incident themselves until the cavalry arrived if needed.

Somewhere along the way, something went wrong. I have a hunch it was Senna/Shumacher on the one hand and BTCC on the other with appalling driving behaviour, coupled with thoughtless organisers putting on programmes that discouraged marshals, and an increase in the number of meetings and poor grids. Those experienced marshals withered away, marshals weren't out there and the drivers knew it, bad examples were being set them by Touring Cars and F1 - lifting off was for losers, professionals could read the situation for themselves. So the marshals stopped marshalling a live track. Newbies would find themselves on post with just one other under-experienced person. No-one had anyone to learn from anymore, and weren't taught how to get out there and do it safely.

And to correct this, we changed the grading scheme.

Sadly, I don't know the answer at the moment, I wish I did. Making people think they're experienced marshals isn't it, but without that level of experience to train on the job, it's difficult to get back to where we were. Significantly reducing the number of meetings and making race series co-ordinators join the marshals for some of them so that they can deal with their drivers from a position of knowledge might be a starting point, but it's unlikely to happen.

Thoughts?

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Woolley

making race series co-ordinators join the marshals for some of them so that they can deal with their drivers from a position of knowledge might be a starting point, but it's unlikely to happen.

How about extending the marshalling "Taster Day" system into the MSA and ARDS licensing schemes so that drivers cannot participate without having (at least?) one day shadowing marshals?

Having only started in summer 2009 I can't really comment with authority on the rest of the points made from a marshalling POV. What I can comment on, however, is that in person - on the bank, at meetings, training courses and so on - the marshals I've met so far have been a pretty good bunch, very friendly and welcoming, ready to share experience and allow me to ask dumb questions without fear of ridicule (well, only a bit). I've been out on a live track with no safety car, happy in the knowledge that there were a total of four experienced marshals either with or watching out for me. Sure, I got a bit of an adrenalin kick (who doesn't on the first ones?) but I felt completely safe the whole time, even though the conditions were utterly diabolical (WHT Sunday).

That experience is somewhat counter to the "it's all gone to ____" attitude which seems to purvey 10/10 on a regular basis.

Here's a quick question for those of you who started, say, 20 or more years ago... what did the experienced marshals you met at the time think or say about how practices were changing?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Greem

Here's a quick question for those of you who started, say, 20 or more years ago... what did the experienced marshals you met at the time think or say about how practices were changing?

That is an extremely good question.

People who were more experienced back then may contradict me, but as a newcomer at the end of the 80s I remember it being generally very enthusiastic. I'd say things started to change on circuits around mid 90s, and I'd connect it with the rise of the modern style promotors and the FIA wrecking touring and sports cars in favour of F1. Also the cars became safer which ironically made the driving worse. The style and quality of meetings began to decline, and with it the number of marshals while the number of meetings increased, all of which have made it harder to work as we did.

[Sparky-steve]

Originally Posted by Greem

How about extending the marshalling "Taster Day" system into the MSA and ARDS licensing schemes so that drivers cannot participate without having (at least?) one day shadowing marshals?

good idea but a waste of time if Woolley's correct. the drivers wouldn't get a taste of a live track. and see the impact they could make on marshals trying to do what we love best.(keeping them safe)

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by Woolley

As a newbie, I was generally paired with one of these old hands and they passed on the benefit of years of experience, taught me how to collect debris safely and how to treat any incident.

just as I was, but then............

Originally Posted by Woolley

Newbies would find themselves on post with just one other under-experienced person. No-one had anyone to learn from anymore, and weren't taught how to get out there and do it safely.

Sadly, I don't know the answer at the moment, I wish I did.

Thoughts?

my idea was to take the easy way out and take up Flagging full-time. Let "them" sort themselves out and leave me alone in my little box to criticize from a distance. This I did very well as some of you are aware!!

But this thread has made me have a re-think...........

just as I benefitted from all the hours spent under the guidance of others, surely it is only right that I try and give something back to the sport that has given me so much. With that in mind, I'm finally going to try and train-up to be an I/O in the hope that if I can only pass-on a fraction of the experience that I have gained over the last 20+ years (both good and bad), then all those years effort by others will not have been wasted.

So once again I'm going to be a trainee. Just be gentle with me as I WILL make mistakes but hopefully, not too many and each one only once!!

Happy New Year and here's to a safer 2010.

[haystacks]

Allo Allo, Stuart.

[gwar]

Happy new year to one and all.
Very interesting thread, and perhaps this might be a little controversial but hey ho, i to felt over the last few years that at a lot of meetings felt that being on the bank,we were only being allowed to spectate and slowly started losing interest, but wanted to be involved, so started flagging seriously and loved it.
Also started to look at the other forms of racing, and have seriously been involved with bike racing for a long time now......guys i tell you what if its real hands on marshaling you want.....come on over (to the dark side )
I do all classes, from moto gp,wsbk,bsbk....all over the world, but my favourite is clubbie bike racing...
Every weekend more often than not were picking up debris, recovering bikes, riders, working on a live track...doing every job...radios, flags, pickup, 1st aid,
This is what marshaling is about...grass roots level (usually gravel level) hands on, i love it, when i drive home on a sunday night i feel appreciated and involved in a good race weekend....and without myself and other like minded people the meeting just wouldnt happen.
Yes there is the odd clown, who think they're invincible.....but ive seen that in cars as well, and will speak to them, and reassess how things can be improved...for everyones safety.......at the end of the day...if i ask for anything from race control.....we get it (even if its live on tv)

As others have said, if things carry on you will end up with lights and pickups only, and the experienced guys we need to learn from are leaving.....

[MattFord]

A very interesting thread!

Every post will have its own idiosyncrasies (that’s foibles for those that are not into big words) and the option to do “push outs” won’t be deemed safe unless the marshals are “working” I will use an example of 4a at Brands being a blind bend and the favourite parking spot for a lot of the small series and occasionally some of the big boys.

I have been trainee IO there for the best part of 14 months and have a general idea of what goes on.

Lets take the term “working” – how many cars came around on the first lap, what is the last car (colour and number) how much faster are the leaders. Is there a gap? Without this information then “NO” do not go out on the live circuit
The fag marshal on post 3 is waving his flag like a wet fish – driver will think there is a bit of gravel and at worst a mud guard kicking around - “NO” do not go out on the live circuit (fag marshal was not a typo)

If you know there is the gap and you are fully supported by the previous post “Go”

There will be multiple scenarios for: hitting the barrier, rollovers, pull offs and you will never know what the problem is until you go..... you will only have seconds to save a drivers life if he has arrested ( not by the local cozzers)

A lot of people are put off by their morning briefing of NEVER, NEVER and this should not be the case. I know every incident is different and this needs to be assessed by your IO or PC depending on what resources you have and proximity to the incident. Not to say that the experienced marshal can’t make the call himself with his own judgement!

“Motor Sport is Dangerous” BUT Did you notice none of the drivers hit the debris at Tamburello?

I do agree that the attitude of drivers seriously needs to be addressed.

Man, mouse Marshal? (not politically correct but you get the point)


PPS (not all flag marshals on post 3 have been classified as fag or wet fish)

[BrendanMcF]

Speaking as an ex-photographer, would anyone agree that perching at the very edge of the track like this requires a certain absence of imagination...?



Ron Cantor (I understand) at the Oulton 4 Hour Relay in '86

[gravel_monkey]

think that was just the way back then, really shows though all the stories the flaggies tell you at oulton about how they used to be able to hit the drivers on the helmet with there flags!

[gravel_monkey]

on another note in reply to matt's post, allan farrimond aka fazza did a presentation on incident handling at the oulton training day, he had a good video of a gp2 crash. hopefully someone may have a link, it was just to show it isnt always clear what you can or cannot do, no traffic, yellow flags waving, decent gap, guys went out and after about 20 seconds pack came round and nearly took them out, he asked the question at one point in the vid who would have gone to the car and almost everyone was saying yes, loads of time, car on the grass, just goes to show sometimes you just dont know what will happen even if the call to go is right

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by gravel_monkey

think that was just the way back then, really shows though all the stories the flaggies tell you at oulton about how they used to be able to hit the drivers on the helmet with there flags!

I've done exactly that at that post. I wouldn't have sat on - ore even leaned on the fence while doing it though *twitch*

Originally Posted by gravel_monkey

on another note in reply to matt's post, allan farrimond aka fazza did a presentation on incident handling at the oulton training day, he had a good video of a gp2 crash. hopefully someone may have a link, it was just to show it isnt always clear what you can or cannot do, no traffic, yellow flags waving, decent gap, guys went out and after about 20 seconds pack came round and nearly took them out, he asked the question at one point in the vid who would have gone to the car and almost everyone was saying yes, loads of time, car on the grass, just goes to show sometimes you just dont know what will happen even if the call to go is right

Then the fault is with the driving. We used to marshal like that quite safely, and we still SHOULD be able to. We have to get the drivers to understand it's their safety as well as ours - just imagine the Hunter Abbot incident if he hadn't parked it safely(!) behind the barriers and the marshals had had to wait for the safety car to be scrambled and the field controlled?

In the past, I've stood in the middle of the circuit at Donington under local yellows attending to an injured driver and not felt in any danger. There's no reason why we shouldn't be able to get back to that point with the support of race control, series co-ordinators and the governing body. Perhaps a letter writing campaign to the MSA might be a good start. Does anyone know a marshal who can write?!

[Sparky-steve]

Originally Posted by gravel_monkey

on another note in reply to matt's post, allan farrimond aka fazza did a presentation on incident handling at the oulton training day, he had a good video of a gp2 crash. hopefully someone may have a link, it was just to show it isnt always clear what you can or cannot do, no traffic, yellow flags waving, decent gap, guys went out and after about 20 seconds pack came round and nearly took them out, he asked the question at one point in the vid who would have gone to the car and almost everyone was saying yes, loads of time, car on the grass, just goes to show sometimes you just dont know what will happen even if the call to go is right

here's the link to the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAvc0Cij7zA

[Gerryc]

Originally Posted by gravel_monkey

think that was just the way back then, really shows though all the stories the flaggies tell you at oulton about how they used to be able to hit the drivers on the helmet with there flags!

You still can from the landing stage flag point at Mallory (post 4 until they renumbered them all last year). I very nearly lost my blue flag a couple of years ago, I swear the driver ducked underneath it!

[Vanny]

I've noticed talk of only going out with radio cover, frankly I find radios will drop out at crucial moments (radio chatter, lack of signal, ears dropping out) and should never be trusted over a good marshal and a whistle! Why are there so few whistles these days?

[fazza]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

here's the link to the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAvc0Cij7zA

Not that one I will find some way of posting it tonight.

[Sparky-steve]

Originally Posted by fazza

Not that one I will find some way of posting it tonight.

oops sorry