Masterful Enforcement

[terence]

This thing about owners/drivers not actually knowing about what thier preparers have done.Having worked in a faily well known race shop for twelve years,I find it hard to belive that when said owner/driver goes to pay his rather large bill that he is not informed as to why his bill is so high.
I would have thought that any race shop will be explaining that "Well,we have done this,and then we had to do that" etc.
Certainly,none of the customers that I've known over the years have just written out a cheque or handed over the credit card without wanting to know whats been done.Perhaps I've been dealing with the wrong customers!.

[terence]

Just about anything can be done these days though.Just think of the Dragster engines knocking out 1000bhp,OK,so they will only last for two runs but it does show whats possible from a stocker.

[simon drabble]

Terry I respect all you say about MGB's but I think that you are wrong about Lotus Twin Cams. Racing Fabs and all the main engine builders will build FIA legal endurance engines putting out 180's bhp (I know because they built mine) and at the time (three years ago) said that they could get into 190's if I wanted a sprint engine. I am, of course talking about a dry sumped engine, but I think it should be the same for wet sumped.....

[zefarelly]

wet sumped are lower, also consider NJ cranks, electronic ignition, lighter flywhell, to non requirement of torques etc etc etc

175 is more like it in a tin top, you have to pull away with an extra 300kg remember

[Peter Mallett]

I think I mentioned elsewhere that letters were being sent to various drivers after Snetterton. I suspect its the way things will be. Allow them to race but tell them that unless changes are made for the next one there'll be no race. I'm not singling any particular driver out here just making the point that if someone thinks a car should be excluded from a meeting it needs to be shown that the car was cheating and you can't reasonably do that unless you allow it to race and thereafter identify the anomaly.

So, where cars were seen to be outrageously fast I'm sure checks have been made and questions have been asked.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Good Times

The OMG rules in Speedwell class are the same, A35 max 1293cc.
If the car was entered openly as a 1360cc, I would think the 1st step was that it was refused entry.
And this situation would not have come up.

It appeared as 1360 in the programme , so definitely 'open'.

[terence]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Terry I respect all you say about MGB's but I think that you are wrong about Lotus Twin Cams. Racing Fabs and all the main engine builders will build FIA legal endurance engines putting out 180's bhp (I know because they built mine) and at the time (three years ago) said that they could get into 190's if I wanted a sprint engine. I am, of course talking about a dry sumped engine, but I think it should be the same for wet sumped.....

Power outputs vary depending on the dyno used,sure,185 is possible,but that takes a lot of work,steel bottom end and so on.Dont forget Simon that these engines only gave 105 new,to gain another 80,takes a really good builder and Head Man.I would be a little more conservative and say that an endurance engine should be more like 160-170.The higher up,the more it takes.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by rogerwills

Is that physically possible? Mine is a 396cu in = 6495cc. I just can't believe a small block designed to be 5 litres or so can be stretched to 6.6!

Perhaps his naivity was not knowing a lot about his own car......

Yes it is possible and I used to race with a 6.6 but that was allowed as the rules stated as long as the block was the same size externally (ModProds). How you do is either wth a Bowtie Motorsport block which never came out till the 70's and was never fitted in any road car so in essence illegal although I bet every hotrod Camaro out there is using one or with the 400 ci truck block again post 70 and never fitted in a Camaro (thats what I ran). The block would have to be bored to 41/8" and fitted with a 3.75" stroke crank and either shorter conrods or special pistons that will give you 6.6 litres.

The motorsport block will safely bore to this size and the siamesed 400 block is standard at this size but both would be illegal in the club and series I run in and any historic series unless overboring and stroking and fitting a none production block is allowed. BTW the maximum safe overbore on a production 350 small block is 40thou over, 60 thou and you are in dangerous territory even for a road car, I know I split one once after I was sold the engine as a 30thou over. Also if you are smart and this what I never used to understand as I noticed all the 1st Gen Camros in historic running at this is Bowtie block bored 41/8 and a 3.5 inch crank giving you 6.2 litres in a nice over square configuration with maximum unshrouding of the valves in the larger bore. A good street trick is to fit the 3.75 crank in the standard 350 block also giving around 6.2 litres and enough torque to pull up tree stumps!

[Al Weyman]

BTW thats the difference between Ford and Chevy small blocks, the chevy can go out to 400ci from the factory in an externally identical dimensioned block, a Ford cannot so any Mustang out there using a stroker much beyond 5 litres should be able to physically check and see if its the right block or a 351 Windsor which looks the same but is half inch taller as its stroked. Someone told me they are bringing out a 350 plus engined Ford I look forward to seeing if it has a stock block as required by the regs! ;-)

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Power outputs vary depending on the dyno used,sure,185 is possible,but that takes a lot of work,steel bottom end and so on.Dont forget Simon that these engines only gave 105 new,to gain another 80,takes a really good builder and Head Man.I would be a little more conservative and say that an endurance engine should be more like 160-170.The higher up,the more it takes.

you are completely right and I put my earlier figures down to a prescribed painkiller haze!! From memory I think it puts out about 174, however I have heard of builders getting endurance engines upto 185 legally. This of course is all a long way from the 150 you quoted which was my real point. Of course this is all at the flywheel rather than back wheels.

[GORDON STREETER]

I can only speak for Ford engines (Kent) but I can get about 25 more HP from a full race all steel dry sumped engine (as opposed to wet sump iron )It is possible to get good HP from a "normal"tuned lump but only for a limited time. If its a chequebook racer doing it then they could get a new engine for every race.

[Peter Mallett]

Agreed.

The thing about Fords is the tuneability of the basic engine (disregarding the Cologne 2.8 of course).

It's probably why most of us who drive (in your case race) them are considered hooligans by the cognoscenti.

But come the day........................................

[terence]

Funny thing about Ford Engines,they always respond well to a bit of tuning.They must have built in a fair safety margin in the original design.

[Peter Mallett]

Well apart from Chevy in the USA what other engines were used by independent builders for performance?

Triumph/MG in early Morgans and TVRs, AC used, um Ford, Reliant used Ford. There were others but pound per BHP they do give good value. My best example is the GAA and the Cologne Capris. Built from a true production shell and engine as opposed to the BMW which was an homologation special.

And I love my Fast road 1860 MGB too.

[terence]

[quote=simon drabble]you are completely right and I put my earlier figures down to a prescribed painkiller haze!! [quote]

Dont worry Simon,they are in common use,mainly by some Engine Builders.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

It's probably why most of us who drive (in your case race) them are considered hooligans by the cognoscenti.

But Pete I am a "connoisseur" of the said models but a hooligan never !
You may be able to baffle me with ott words but not my wife! also she said you are in for a fair old bit of punishment after school (if you like)

[zefarelly]

I had a cognoscenti once, dreadful thing, gave it away and bought a Lambretta instead

ford engines seemed to replace MG engines by the mid 60's in low volume production cars, same or more power, less weight, and less tendancy to vibrate the car to bits eh Terry

[terence]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

I had a cognoscenti once, dreadful thing, gave it away and bought a Lambretta instead

ford engines seemed to replace MG engines by the mid 60's in low volume production cars, same or more power, less weight, and less tendancy to vibrate the car to bits eh Terry

More power usually Zef,as for the vibration thing, I've no idea on what your on about.

[Steve Hill]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Yep,thats the one,dont know why they have given a two period of grace but it is a step in the right direction,MGB with 50kg ? that'll upset a few.

Terry, On the MGB thing, how will adding 50kg to the oversized engined cars affect their performance compared to a legal MGB

[terence]

Just going by a back to back test at Donington a couple of years ago,a very good friend asked if I would test his newly acuired B [unknown build] against mine.My car was 43kg lighter but with an identical spec engine etc.Nice sunny day ,perfect conditions and I could not get his car to with-in 1.75secs of mine.I would expect that the 50kg should have approx the same effect on a circuit of similar length.Then of course for endurance racing theres the effect on fuel consumption,brakes,etc.

[rogerwills]

One of the great old boys told me that every 10lbs is the same as 1bhp. His point was that every lb in weight that could be lost was free horse-power.

[terence]

Absolutly Roger,nothing should get a free ride,but our hands are tied by the regs that we know are there.Thats not to say that we cannot bring the respective weights down to the homologated.One of the reasons my car will live with an overweight 1950.

[john ruston]

Our T/C's used in Merlyn were 1600 cc and 189bhp in Spa trim and 195 in Sprint trim.Legal as well.May have been the dyno but it beat Dennis Welsh at Oulton(and all the bigger cars) and did 50's at Spa .Good drivers tend to make the difference

[zefarelly]

I think in Sports racers and very light cars you can tune for power at the expense of torque, theres less lard to move around and more gears to play with basically.

I hope you meant 2:50's and not 3's John

[john ruston]

It was 2 50! I can do 3 50 in Talbot (just) Problem is GB can do 3 23 in same car!