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19 Oct 2008, 14:15 (Ref:2315916) | #51 | ||
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maybe a S3000R
as a combination between S2000 and DTM So it has some aero but not extortionate amounts like now, and they have the power etc I said S3000 as a name for Martin Haven concept - as i didn't know it was already in use |
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19 Oct 2008, 14:22 (Ref:2315918) | #52 | ||
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S3000 isn't the official name for the Super-Stars ruleset, but it's kinda close to what it would probably look like.
And S3000R would probably resemble the Aussie V8-cars with smaller engines, wouldn't it? |
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19 Oct 2008, 14:22 (Ref:2315920) | #53 | |||
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thought not... everyone has big executive cars to sell... thay all have big V8s, with plenty of power and noise possible... spectacular like Gp 5 cars but saner than DTM and Super-touring in terms of cost, as things like rev-limiters and perhaps standard drive-train parts... no carbon shells, based on production bodies like Aussie V8s but for European (and Japanese) manufacturers... And if the WTCC went that way (we can only hope!) cars would appear... in National series too, I suspect |
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19 Oct 2008, 14:24 (Ref:2315921) | #54 | |||
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If it doesn't make your ears bleed, it's not a proper sport! |
19 Oct 2008, 14:26 (Ref:2315924) | #55 | ||||
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I'm with you in your aforementioned "racing as entertainment, not R&D"-approach, but if you think that through, it is easier and probably cheaper to do it with silhuoette cars, instead of keeping the unibody but change everything on the inside. Or maybe a semi-silhoette like in Super GT or Gr.5 would work best. Keep the greenhouse, replace everything else with tubeframes. Last edited by Speed-King; 19 Oct 2008 at 14:32. |
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19 Oct 2008, 22:44 (Ref:2316263) | #56 | |
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I disagree. Racing should either be prototypes or single seaters, or production-based. The in-between silhouette racers are just silly.
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Michael Delaney was wrong. In between is not waiting - in between is the glory, the passion. In between is what elevates racing. |
19 Oct 2008, 23:20 (Ref:2316275) | #57 | ||
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20 Oct 2008, 06:58 (Ref:2316384) | #58 | ||
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So world-wide works proto or local production based privateers I think, Haug, Theissen and Ulricch choose first |
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20 Oct 2008, 07:37 (Ref:2316407) | #59 | |||
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The casual viewers (and that's the huge majority) don't care about what's underneath the shell of the car. And as tubeframe cars have several advantages (repairability, longevity, free choice of RWD vs FWD, reusability, etc) over production based cars, I see no reason that speaks against silhouette racers. That is, if you are not a purist or über-gearhead, but hardly anyone is, these days. |
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20 Oct 2008, 08:37 (Ref:2316462) | #60 | ||||
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Last edited by Bramzel; 20 Oct 2008 at 08:39. |
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20 Oct 2008, 08:39 (Ref:2316464) | #61 | ||
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[edit] double
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20 Oct 2008, 16:56 (Ref:2316798) | #62 | |||
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DTM organisers have visited NASCAR last weekend:
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In my opinion DTM should copy the NASCAR formula:
Just my 2 cents. Last edited by FIRE; 20 Oct 2008 at 17:01. |
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20 Oct 2008, 17:04 (Ref:2316803) | #63 | ||
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Speed was okay, Corner was too tight |
20 Oct 2008, 17:08 (Ref:2316806) | #64 | |
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If I remember well a V8Star car was less than 150k Euro.
A 800 bhp NASCAR Cup car is around 150k to 200k Euro. |
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20 Oct 2008, 17:16 (Ref:2316811) | #65 | |
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Of course a Nascar can be cheap. They just go round round in an oval with banks. Not too demanding in the steering and suspension department.
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20 Oct 2008, 17:26 (Ref:2316817) | #66 | |||
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Size is not really a problem with tube-frame cars and neither is a sufficient level of horse-power if you don't restrict the engines artificially and stay rather unsophisticated.. I think 150k would definitely be doable, esp. if they went - like NASCAR - the spec-chassis-way. Last edited by Speed-King; 20 Oct 2008 at 17:29. |
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20 Oct 2008, 18:58 (Ref:2316904) | #67 | ||
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Oh,please,not NASCAR! DTM has enough show-element with that stupid second pit-stop.If they're going to act the race-long show,I'll better watch some Lada Cup events live.
DTM really needs privat independent teams.It's a shame that Zakspeed has some financial problems(as I've heard), would be great to return Manthey too. Maybe,they should invite tuning companies? But one thing is evidient. DTM shouldn't be a 20 or 30-event sweepstakes. Big money always make big problems. |
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21 Oct 2008, 01:02 (Ref:2317163) | #68 | ||
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Although DTM already has MB/Audi sharing some parts, perhaps they should incr the parts/chassis sharing to Nascar levels. IIRC, the chassis are shared, it's coming to the point where basically, only the badges separates the cars.
Though as a "touring" car fan, I don't want to see them become closer to Nascar. |
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Supertouring Forever and Ever... |
21 Oct 2008, 07:54 (Ref:2317306) | #69 | |||
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21 Oct 2008, 08:47 (Ref:2317352) | #70 | ||
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Why do you want to equalize everything?I can't understand! Americans usually say they want to see pilots battles,not cars. But I thought Europeans are fond of both pilots and cars battles.
If the main reason is money,then there should be a rule of maximum sum of money,team can spend on a car. Maybe,they should return fuel economy formula. Maybe, some standart details. But the design must be different! It's not a mono-class. There're plenty of cups like,Porsche,Ferrari,Megane,Seat etc. Imagine,that there're some people,who want to watch some interesting design in DTM. I'm sure,even limited costs would be able to help engineers to invent something new. For example, BTCS with Jaguar,BMW,Peugeot silhouettes is rather popular in Belgium. ITR should go that way,not American. Besides, there were some NASCAResque series in Europe.Where're they now? NASCAR way - dead-end for Europe series. Last edited by helgi; 21 Oct 2008 at 08:53. |
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21 Oct 2008, 10:24 (Ref:2317424) | #71 | ||||||
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For example something like this: http://stockcar.globo.com/ or http://www.trv6.com.ar/ But without the spec-engines. The huge advantage of a ruleset like that would be that smaller teams like Schubert, Kissling or Irmscher could go to Dallara or Lola or Zytek or whoever and order a competitive chassis for an affordable price, then go to an engine-builder and get a proper engine and finally put a silhouette over it and go racing with an BMW 3-series car or an Insignia. They could use the same chassis for 5 years* and re-body it if the car model changes or gets a facelift. It would be a huge help for privateers and for variety and that's what DTM needs. *if it's a spec-chassis anyway, there's no problem in "freezing" it for a long period of time. |
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21 Oct 2008, 10:38 (Ref:2317435) | #72 | |
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I said DTM should take NASCAR as an example but that does NOT mean they should use stock cars (but I recommend to watch a NASCAR race on a road course because it's great racing) or race on ovals. DTM, WTCC but also F1 could learn a lot from NASCAR (or US racing in general).
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21 Oct 2008, 12:20 (Ref:2317499) | #73 | ||
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Well,I'll agree with some ideas. Would be great if some well-known (not one,because monopoly has never got quality) chassis specialists provide 'body',and manufacturers provide only engines with silhouettes. So,manufacturers won't be able to rule a set of teams and divide the field into two or three 'football teams'.
But technical side of racing should be open for spectators - ITR should look at ACO and its LMS. I think lots of fans there are interested not only in racing,but engineering and design to.And in case we knew more about DTM technic,not only 5-minutes of 'boxenstop' with Manuel Reuter at ARD, an interest would be higher. As for American racing I think they are talented in making huge money out of everything. That's the fact and I don't argue about it. But do we want to have another piece of show? That's the question. |
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21 Oct 2008, 14:05 (Ref:2317581) | #74 | |
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NASCAR is great serie, why do you afraid it? NASCARlike road-course racing serie is called V8 Supercars. It is great serie. DTM can learn something from Australians. More rounds, more racing. Look at old DTM/ITC - you find 13 rounds with 2 races each. V8 has two manufacturers, but no political games - thing, that DTM need most of all. So, in fact, DTM don't need NASCAR, it need just a good organisation, good work for Aufrecht, Haug, Ullrich and other bosses. Another case any decision make things worst.
I've written my point of view to DTM technical reglament earlier, and I think it is still actual. Commercialization in NASCAR is thing that terryfied me most of all. I was shocked by fan who asked Junior before Daytona about jouce, he'd advertised few months before. It is unacceptable for me. |
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21 Oct 2008, 15:37 (Ref:2317643) | #75 | ||
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