The Noughties

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

considering the number of starts he had compared to others on the table, with the exception i guess of Will, i'd say he did pretty good

highlights for the last ten years, Will winning the first race/round for DJR in Donkeys at EC, and Courtney doing the same this year (race)... twice

Racerage at EC with Russell and the Shnoz, Ambrose and Murph at the Mountain, Murph and the Port-a-loo at the Mountain

THE lap, even if i do think he is a whinging pain

Thats exactly my point. What if ambrose had stayed, and SBR still fell away like they did? The ratio would be highly different. Look at it like F1, Hamiltons first year, compared to other drivers rookie years....

[William Dale Jr]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

considering the number of starts he had compared to others on the table, with the exception i guess of Will, i'd say he did pretty good

Quite right. When you take Falcadore's stats and break them down into how many starts/win and podiums/win they had, well...

Starts/Win
4.333 Marcos Ambrose
5.706 Jamie Whincup
5.714 Mark Skaife
8.056 Craig Lowndes
9.063 Garth Tander
13.571 Mark Winterbottom
14.600 Will Davison
16.111 Todd Kelly
18.857 Jason Bright
20.714 Greg Murphy
29.000 Russell Ingall & Steven Richards

Starts/Podium
2.167 Marcos Ambrose
2.857 Mark Skaife
3.129 Jamie Whincup
3.295 Craig Lowndes
3.537 Garth Tander
4.615 Rick Kelly
5.000 Greg Murphy
5.500 Jason Bright
5.577 Todd Kelly
6.304 Russell Ingall & Steven Richards


Ambrose comes out comfortably ahead on both counts. The figures aren't perfect as they take into account rounds rather than races. This is more likely to hurt the figures of anyone who ran every race in 2009, but it also makes Whincup's stats even more impressive. Also, take note of Craig Lowndes' numbers. Consider that his highly successful years at HRT came prior to 2000, and that he didn't dominate the win column to the same extent afterwards, Lowndes' numbers are also quite impressive.

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Thats exactly my point. What if ambrose had stayed, and SBR still fell away like they did? The ratio would be highly different.

You're quite right. What if Ambrose was still at SBR for 2006, he more than likely would have had more success than an inexperienced James Courtney did in the same car. Perhaps he wouldn't have. But stats don't take into account what-if scenarios. What stats do illustrate is that, on a success per start basis, Ambrose was the most regularly successful of any V8 Supercar driver in the noughties.

[STEALTHY]

Its not that impressive when one of those drivers records can only get better, while all the rest are still fighting 30 other drivers in current races, thus their ratio is ALWAYS going down.

Like i said, someone can come along, race once, and win, and never set foot on track again, and have a 100% ratio.....And all other drivers mean nothing.....


A BETTER comparison would be to show the win/loss ratio for the years he was here, compared to other drivers who also drove in those years.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by William Dale Jr

You're quite right. What if Ambrose was still at SBR for 2006, he more than likely would have had more success than an inexperienced James Courtney did in the same car. Perhaps he wouldn't have. But stats don't take into account what-if scenarios. What stats do illustrate is that, on a success per start basis, Ambrose was the most regularly successful of any V8 Supercar driver in the noughties.

Not doubting that stat in the slightest, stats will say anything you want them to.

When you say the noughties, your not counting the whole decades races, your only counting the ones he raced in, hence, swayed stats

[William Dale Jr]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Its not that impressive when one of those drivers records can only get better, while all the rest are still fighting 30 other drivers in current races, thus their ratio is ALWAYS going down.

Exactly. And while all the rest are fighting it out for wins week-in, week-out, Ambrose's win total stays exactly where it is, and their win totals keep going up.

Are Whincup's stats any less impressive because he didn't race against Skaife in 2000-2002 when he was at his most dominant? Are Skaife's any less impressive because he didn't race against the Triple 8/HRT steamroller in 2009? Their respective ratios would have gone down, too.

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Not doubting that stat in the slightest, stats will say anything you want them to.

Agreed. Individual statistics don't really mean much without the rest of the story to provide context. To use your example, a driver comes along and wins in their only start. Is it impressive? Statistically, yes, but what does it mean in the whole scheme of things? For example, what if Jacky Ickx doesn't come back for Bathurst in 1978, leaving him with a perfect record. Statistically it would be a tremendous achievement - a lot of people have started Bathurst once over the years, but how many have won it? - but it's not really that impressive when you consider the rest of the story; he was a world-class driver with the best team in the best car.

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

When you say the noughties, your not counting the whole decades races, your only counting the ones he raced in, hence, swayed stats

Well, not even Ambrose can win a race he doesn't start in.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by William Dale Jr

Exactly. And while all the rest are fighting it out for wins week-in, week-out, Ambrose's win total stays exactly where it is, and their win totals keep going up.

Are Whincup's stats any less impressive because he didn't race against Skaife in 2000-2002 when he was at his most dominant? Are Skaife's any less impressive because he didn't race against the Triple 8/HRT steamroller in 2009? Their respective ratios would have gone down, too.



Agreed. Individual statistics don't really mean much without the rest of the story to provide context. To use your example, a driver comes along and wins in their only start. Is it impressive? Statistically, yes, but what does it mean in the whole scheme of things? For example, what if Jacky Ickx doesn't come back for Bathurst in 1978, leaving him with a perfect record. Statistically it would be a tremendous achievement - a lot of people have started Bathurst once over the years, but how many have won it? - but it's not really that impressive when you consider the rest of the story; he was a world-class driver with the best team in the best car.



Well, not even Ambrose can win a race he doesn't start in.

You said yourself, it doesn't tell the full story.

Specifically for THIS thread, it would be good to see who has the best win ratio for the whole decade. Like you mentioned, Jamies early years would hurt him in regards to that type of stat, but since were talking about the noughties, and not just 'while someone was here' it would make more sense

[Razor]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

2000s - the era when cars started out a bit like mongrel touring cars and ended up as nascars that look a bit like touring cars!

From cars without bars across the windscreen, that were built into real holden and ford shells and with vaguely similar layouts to the AU1 and VT1 (excepting Holden engine replaced by Chev and no IRS)

to cars with sequential shift, largely composites panels, roll bars galore with body stitched on top, the driver sitting nearly in the backseat and hardly able to see over the dash, steering wheels with 20 dials and button and readouts on them and no connection to the XR8 and SS whatsoever.

It's still got a big V8 and 4 wheels which is nice though .

Did TC get his goal of "world's best touring championship" though? (Races in the middle east, half a calendar of street races, smaller grids, talented young drivers having to buy their way in... was this the plan?) IMHO 2001-2002 maybe it was the best, but recently the WTCC is probably the bigger, better series with exciting venues and massive works operations double or more the size of the top humble v8 supercar team.

Let Romulan senator Vreenak sum up you're thoughts about the current V8 Supercar cars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qKcJF4fOPs

[William Dale Jr]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Specifically for THIS thread, it would be good to see who has the best win ratio for the whole decade ... since were talking about the noughties, and not just 'while someone was here' it would make more sense

How can it possibly make sense to count races that a driver didn't start in? The best win ratio, taking into account all races of the decade, will be held by Skaife, simply because he has the most wins.

That statistic disadvantages everyone who didn't start every single race in the decade (Whincup, Winterbottom, Ambrose, etc) because their ratio is lumbered by including races that they could not possibly have won.

The most meaningful statistics for this thread are: # of wins, # of podiums, win: starts ratio, podium: starts ratio; all for both drivers and teams. Somewhere in there will be an answer. Probably not the answer, but an answer nonetheless.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by William Dale Jr

This is more likely to hurt the figures of anyone who ran every race in 2009, but it also makes Whincup's stats even more impressive.

It's funny you should bring that up. There is a note in the stats section of V8 Supercar's website that says, more or less, that they are continuing to track round wins in the traditional manner - both races combining on a weekend - in the event that a more conventional race weekend format returns in future years. But for the moment they are using Race Wins as their primary statistic of victory rather than Round Wins. So the Round Wins numbers reflect that note, 14 Rounds for 2009, rather than 26.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by William Dale Jr

How can it possibly make sense to count races that a driver didn't start in? The best win ratio, taking into account all races of the decade, will be held by Skaife, simply because he has the most wins.

Because were talking about a decade, not who has the best win/start ratio.

Who DOMINATED the decade.......? Not who raced for a few years, then ****ed off.....
Yes, it might not have mr nascar hero at the top, but he wasn't here, thats plainly obvious. Sort of like when talking all time, number of starts, consecutive race etc, ambrose wouldn't come close

[Holly Wood]

The Ambrose talk is all very well, but the most talented driver to race a V8 Supercar in the last decade has a 100% record when it comes to topping qualifying...

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Holly Wood

The Ambrose talk is all very well, but the most talented driver to race a V8 Supercar in the last decade has a 100% record when it comes to topping qualifying...

And that would be?

[William Dale Jr]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Who DOMINATED the decade.......?

In that case, I think I have the answer. Nobody. No single person dominated the decade.

Skaife dominated the start before tapering right off and 'retiring' before the decade was through. Ambrose dominated for a couple of years before, as you say, ******* off. Tander was incredibly strong in '06 and '07 having started the decade strongly, struggling in his latter days with GRM, then rising to prominence again by joining the Walkinshaw empire. Finally, J-Dub rounded off the decade as the most dominant man in '08 and '09, but who would've picked that after his dismal rookie year at GRM in '03?

I'm beginning to think you don't much like Marcos, Stealthy.

Originally Posted by Falcadore

...they are continuing to track round wins in the traditional manner - both races combining on a weekend - in the event that a more conventional race weekend format returns in future years.

So what happens if they do go back to the old 'races comprising a round' system? Does that mean they re-write this period of history in order for it to make more sense? From the mob that brought you such fine stat-keeping like the Clipsal saga...

Originally Posted by Holly Wood

The Ambrose talk is all very well, but the most talented driver to race a V8 Supercar in the last decade has a 100% record when it comes to topping qualifying...

Ryan Briscoe? How good was he that day. I remember watching that qualifying session on Bigpond back in the day, and being in disbelief at what I was watching. To come to a circuit he'd never been to, in cars that everyone else had raced all year, in one of the most competitive series on Earth, and put it on pole. In the words of Mr McAvaney, "Special."

[peckstar]

doesnt ryan have a 100% record with crashing at bathurst

oh wait never completed the distance in a v8 race either

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by William Dale Jr

So what happens if they do go back to the old 'races comprising a round' system? Does that mean they re-write this period of history in order for it to make more sense? From the mob that brought you such fine stat-keeping like the Clipsal saga...

What it basically means is the accounting did not actually change last year to this year, but the emphasis was altered from Round Results to individual Race Results.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by William Dale Jr

In that case, I think I have the answer. Nobody. No single person dominated the decade.

Wait, so no-one had the most wins, most podiums, most poles, etc during the decade? Thats how you find out who dominated, out of the x amount of races held in this one decade, who has the most of each......

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by peckstar

doesnt ryan have a 100% record with crashing at bathurst

oh wait never completed the distance in a v8 race either

Because Briscoe crashed the car in the race by mental telepathy while standing in the pits.

He and Jim Richards did finsh the Sandown 500.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Wait, so no-one had the most wins, most podiums, most poles, etc during the decade? Thats how you find out who dominated, out of the x amount of races held in this one decade, who has the most of each......

Winning a stats race by two or three isn't dominating.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Winning a stats race by two or three isn't dominating.

Someone has the MOST for the decade tho, excuse the bad wording on my part.

So, anyone know the stats, out of the x amount of races, someone has the most wins/podiums/poles/bathursts etc.....

[F J Nedos]

Who was the best privateer in the noughties?

Mr Thexton?

Other suggestions?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Because Briscoe crashed the car in the race by mental telepathy while standing in the pits.

He and Jim Richards did finsh the Sandown 500.

diidn't say he did not finish, i said he didnt complete the distance, 4 laps down

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Someone has the MOST for the decade tho, excuse the bad wording on my part.

So, anyone know the stats, out of the x amount of races, someone has the most wins/podiums/poles/bathursts etc.....

Poles don't count for sheet. There is not a single race driver in the world who wouldn't trade a pole position for a win the next day. The wins and podiums are on the previous page.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Poles don't count for sheet. There is not a single race driver in the world who wouldn't trade a pole position for a win the next day. The wins and podiums are on the previous page.

Thats your opinion. Championships mean ****all to certain drivers as opposed to a bathurst victory. It doesn't mean they should be excluded from the response because of what you think

Theres more to the stats than just your opinion

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Thats your opinion. Championships mean ****all to certain drivers as opposed to a bathurst victory. It doesn't mean they should be excluded from the response because of what you think

Theres more to the stats than just your opinion

It's not what I think. Its what everyone thinks. At that level winning is everything, and the only thing.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

It's not what I think. Its what everyone thinks. At that level winning is everything, and the only thing.

I'm sorry you fell that way, but you are not everyone. Pole positions are still apart of our sport, so they should be listed aswell.

Whilst i'm not disagreeing every driver would rather a win than a pole, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be counted.