Gordon Kirby, The Way it is. The ALMS searches for a new direction

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by 6157

Yes, this whole "economy" thing is just a big conspiracy. It's not like stocks took a huge hit, there's a national debt, and even the largest companies nationwide are cutting back.

Seriously, you post BS like that and you wonder why I follow you through threads? It's like duck hunting in the bedroom, I can't miss.

It is a well-known tacit especially in America that Businesses will use any excuse to fire you, especially if it saves them money.

For what it would take for Audi to return for a full season in the ALMS and continued promotion of Diesel technology as a "Green" solution would have been a drop in the bucket. So much so that Audi NA considered putting together a program themselves to run the cars, but the rumor goes that Audi AG wanted no part of that. But as it turns out from their 1st Quarter earnings in 2009, they reported less losses than their rivals and as of 2010 have turned a profit in every Q since and gained market share over their direct rivals.

What was the fear? The Unknown? BS!

Clearly making (1) great cars and (2) having a racing heritage to use for marketing clearly helped them. Proving once again F1 has no baring on auto sales, as involvement by both Toyota, BMW and Honda did not result in increased positive marketing opportunities.

So by following my thread post around, your the official &%^$#% picker-upper?

I will listen to Da Dawg and refrain from "Feeding The Trolls"

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by 6157

Yes, this whole "economy" thing is just a big conspiracy. It's not like stocks took a huge hit, there's a national debt, and even the largest companies nationwide are cutting back.

Seriously, you post BS like that and you wonder why I follow you through threads? It's like duck hunting in the bedroom, I can't miss.



So you're suggesting it's Kristen Stewart's fault IMSA is failing?

I knew I hated that ***** for a reason.

No-just drawing a parallel between a racing series that twice imploded as far as factory interest-once when Kristen was a baby, and again when she became an adult. And to show one how short of time span it takes for those to forget the lessons of the past. Techincally, she's been alive through 3 recessions: 1990-92, 1999-2002(includes the post 9/11 recession), and 2008-present. That's 3 recessions in 20 years, and how old is Kristen Stewart? 20 years old.

World War II started less than 20 years after World War I ended, and it was clear that Adolf Hitler didn't care about past lessons, and what did it get him? It sent him to an early grave as one of history's most infamous mass murderers.

I'm not saying that the management of IMSA or NASCAR or any other sports sanctioning body is as stupid as Hitler, but it begs the use of the phrase that we need to learn from the past, or else we're doomed to repeat it. The banks and investors and companies that have caused or contributed to recessions past and present just don't seem to learn from their predecessor's mistakes.

IMSA learned that they needed a plan, but by the time their ad-hoc plan was put in place it was too late and all they could do was stop the bleeding in expectation that Audi, Porsche, and Honda wouldn't be back either full time or on a full scale for the forseeable future in the LMP classes. Granted, that's still better than NASCAR hemmoraging money, ticket sales, and TV ratings and have resorted to bullying drivers and teams to cover for them.

Grand Am is kinda of in a similar predicament, due to limited factory support and lack of team sponsorship. Only their NASCAR connection has kept that profitable, but if it starts to enproach on NASCAR's main product, look for it to falter, too.

How did Audi beat Peugeot at Le Mans in 2008 and this year? They had a plan and stuck to it, and covered all controlable contingencies. How has Reinhold Joest been so successful as a team owner in sportscar racing? He develops and game plan and sticks to it, and covers all contingencies within that plan.

The economy isn't certian or set in stone, but one should have a plan to be able to control what they can, as that can allow them to focus on remediying other issues as they arise.

[Dead-Eye]

IMSA, Twilight, Hitler. I think my head just exploded

[chernaudi]

As it probably should, having to resort to those points to show that this boom-and-bust cycle of sportscar racing isn't new, and it seems that some in charge haven't learned from past mistakes.

It happened in 1990, and it happened in 2008, both economic recession and the boom part of that cycle for sportscar racing. In 1990, the banks, S&Ls, and businesses spent themselves broke, and sportscar racing, among other deals, circled the drain as well. In 2008, history repeated itself.

Only now has IMSA admitted that a lack of a proper business plan hurt them, and Audi, Porsche, and Honda saw the same and cut back before things got really bad. The ACO is facing similar problems in the LMS after Peugeot and Aston Martin cut back, too.

And, at least short term, the ILMC won't help much, either, as if you're a big car maker in a shaky economy where coroporate boards and their bean counters have as much control over your racing program as anything else, would you rather race in a few big races or a full season racing program in the ALMS or LMS that will cost just as much and might not reap as much promotion?

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

As it probably should, having to resort to those points to show that this boom-and-bust cycle of sportscar racing isn't new, and it seems that some in charge haven't learned from past mistakes.

It happened in 1990, and it happened in 2008, both economic recession and the boom part of that cycle for sportscar racing. In 1990, the banks, S&Ls, and businesses spent themselves broke, and sportscar racing, among other deals, circled the drain as well. In 2008, history repeated itself.

Only now has IMSA admitted that a lack of a proper business plan hurt them, and Audi, Porsche, and Honda saw the same and cut back before things got really bad. The ACO is facing similar problems in the LMS after Peugeot and Aston Martin cut back, too.

And, at least short term, the ILMC won't help much, either, as if you're a big car maker in a shaky economy where coroporate boards and their bean counters have as much control over your racing program as anything else, would you rather race in a few big races or a full season racing program in the ALMS or LMS that will cost just as much and might not reap as much promotion?

Totally agree and this is the assumption that what happens in the Untied States doesn't affect Europe, when it does.

What happen in 2008 was a reaction to the US Car market (strictly talking about racing), loosing 6 million in car sales annual is a BIG deal. But after the fall out, we all know the Rich haven't suffered (not including those not connected to the Real Estate Market, Bernie Madoff, Mark Standford, etc, etc) because sales for all expensive and exclusive cars are still strong.

So this ridiculous argument over the price of GT2 and GT3 cars is largely meaningless.

ROI hardly entered the mind of many for these people, they have money to burn literally.

I will say that HPD is a stand alone operation, it only has seed money from Honda North America. It has to consider it own operations. One reason they leased the engines from the LMP program out was because why let them sit there and collect dust when somebody might want to use them? In other words it was cheaper to use them than to let them sit on engine stands someplace.

This is why they have increased their involvement in Grassroots Racing with the Real-Time built HPD Civic Si that can be raced in World Challenge TC and Grand Am ST for an affordable price (I heard $80K from another thread). Also increasing their stake in Indy Car (with a all new engine) and supplying engines for Formula Ford (Formula Fit).

Also about Audi, when the board decision was made, Champion Racing was effectively disbanded and I'm not sure Audi N/A had all the resources it needed to rebuild the team from scratch, find another facility to store and repair the cars, equipment, etc. Dave Maraj I believe filed for protection from his creditors. I think in the end it would have cost too much to continue in the ALMS as much as Audi N/A wanted too. I think they understand how positive the racing program has been for the brand, all you have to do is look at any of the Audi forums.

[chernaudi]

Add the fact that Champion Porsche & Audi car dealerships were based in the Miami area-one of the most economically unstable areas of the US, if not the world. When the economy tanks, south Florida is one of the first places to look for issues.

The issue is that with Audi they had their 2009 budget set up-until the board inisisted the budget cutback. Clearly, the ALMS didn't do much to bolster overall car sales for Audi. However, it did inspire, it seems, at least a grass-roots effort to advertise their diesel cars, which started to be sold after Audi cut back on the ALMS.

Other than economic scares, Porsche were trying to take over Audi's owner, Volkswagen Group. Wiedking was one of the auto industry's biggest bean counters, but he didn't count his beans too well, as Porsche nearly bankrupted themselves trying to take over VAG. Audi being VAG's most profitable divisions is good and bad. Good because it shows Audi's strengh as a brand, and bad because a lot of money that could've been used for a 2010 ALMS program was spent bailing Porsche out. Either way, Porsche is culpable somewhat for the Audi board's decision.

As for IMSA, especially after Panoz cut back funding for the ALMS after 2006, it made the manufacturers' money more important, and lack of title sponsors and other forms of investments(including a relevant business plan) has hurt them. But they're still better off than Grand Am(which has the NASCAR moeny, but we know that NASCAR would just as assume kill it as to let it live, espeically if profits faulter), and NASCAR itself, as at least the ALMS has stabilized, while NASCAR looses ratings and ticket sales, and Indy Car's officals make questionable calls and has spec racing.

[6157]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

.For what it would take for Audi to return for a
full season in the ALMS and continued promotion of Diesel technology as a "Green" solution would have been a drop in the bucket. So much so that Audi NA considered putting together a program themselves to run the cars, but the rumor goes that Audi AG wanted no part of that. But as it turns out from their 1st Quarter earnings in 2009, they reported less losses than their rivals and as of 2010 have turned a profit in every Q since and gained market share over their direct rivals.

Just because it's a "drop in the bucket" doesn't mean it's a good business decision. Successful companies like Audi aren't built on decisions from the heart, they're built on decisions from the bottom line. You need to get that through your head. They're not going to run a P 1 program in America FOR YOU, they're going to run it when they feel the financial investment is worth the ROI. They obviously don't think it was after 2008 and you're in no position to question them for it.

It's a sad day when logic, common sense, and reasonable business acumen is pointed at as "trolling." Then again, I need to consider the source.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I'm not saying that the management of IMSA or NASCAR or any other sports sanctioning body is as stupid as Hitler, but it begs the use of the phrase that we need to learn from the past, or else we're doomed to repeat it. The banks and investors and companies that have caused or contributed to recessions past and present just don't seem to learn from their predecessor's mistakes.

I think you're getting ahead of yourself comparing 1990 IMSA to 2010 IMSA as we're talking about two completely different versions of IMSA. However, you're right that the current iteration should be very well familiar with the mistakes of the past. It's obvious they did not learn from those mistakes.

At least in 1990, IMSA had something to hold on to: Nissan, Toyota, and Jaguar. I think it was a foregone conclusion that Jag was gone but Nissan and Toyota could have carried the series through lean years. Other than the GT participation, IMSA has no headlining class worth holding on to. Now would be a good time to blow it up and start paving their own road away from the ACO.

[6157]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

As for IMSA, especially after Panoz cut back funding for the ALMS after 2006, it made the manufacturers' money more important, and lack of title sponsors and other forms of investments(including a relevant business plan) has hurt them. But they're still better off than Grand Am(which has the NASCAR moeny, but we know that NASCAR would just as assume kill it as to let it live, espeically if profits faulter), and NASCAR itself, as at least the ALMS has stabilized, while NASCAR looses ratings and ticket sales, and Indy Car's officals make questionable calls and has spec racing.

ALMS is better off than NASCAR? When did this turn into comedy hour?

NASCAR was exponentially bigger than ALMS, in both of their primes. Now NASCAR has experienced sponsorship and TV losses and ALMS has experienced the same. So can you explain how ALMS is better off than NASCAR at this point in time? I don't see NASCAR or ISC selling off assets desperate for cash. Scott Atherton can wear his little "We are not for sale" button around all he wants but if the right price came along, you be assured the ALMS would have a for sale sign on it's lawn the next day. What does that tell you about the financial situation of the two entities?

There's no point in referencing or discussing Grand-Am. You don't understand why Grand-Am is in operation or why it has a much better probability at a future than the ALMS.

[chernaudi]

ALMS' ticket sales and TV ratings have been stable the past couple of years, with Sebring recording 2008-like numbers inspite of the snooze fest that Peugeot made the overall battle into.

NASCAR may be bigger than the ALMS, but that doesn't mean as far as stability they're any better off, as fans have continued to leave the sport. Maybe because the ALMS has something for everyone like a PT Barnum circus may be helping, or sportscar fans are more diehard than NASCAR fans, I don't know.

Besides, Scott Atherton doens't own IMSA or the ALMS; Don Panoz does. And as long as Don gets his patent and royalty payments from the companies that make nicotine patches(ironic, considering that Don's a smoker!), I don't think he'll sell the ALMS as long as ticket sales, TV ratings, and his profits are healthy.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

ALMS' ticket sales and TV ratings have been stable the past couple of years, with Sebring recording 2008-like numbers inspite of the snooze fest that Peugeot made the overall battle into.

NASCAR may be bigger than the ALMS, but that doesn't mean as far as stability they're any better off, as fans have continued to leave the sport. Maybe because the ALMS has something for everyone like a PT Barnum circus may be helping, or sportscar fans are more diehard than NASCAR fans, I don't know.

Besides, Scott Atherton doens't own IMSA or the ALMS; Don Panoz does. And as long as Don gets his patent and royalty payments from the companies that make nicotine patches(ironic, considering that Don's a smoker!), I don't think he'll sell the ALMS as long as ticket sales, TV ratings, and his profits are healthy.

I think NASCAR has much bigger problems. When Tony Stewart is blaming the media for making people stay home, somebody needs to tell him to take marketing 101. The media can only say its bad and then prove it, its up to NASCAR and "Smoke" to make liars out them, thus far they aren't doing the job.

Brian France is TONE DEAF

[6157]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Besides, Scott Atherton doens't own IMSA or the ALMS; Don Panoz does. And as long as Don gets his patent and royalty payments from the companies that make nicotine patches(ironic, considering that Don's a smoker!), I don't think he'll sell the ALMS as long as ticket sales, TV ratings, and his profits are healthy.

Says who? Tom Kjos, or Murphy the Bear I always get them confused, wrote an article at the beginning of the year showing piece by piece how IMSA's, and in turn ALMS', revenue has dropped since 2008. Profits, if they have any, aren't nearly as healthy as they once were.

Gate attendance doesn't always translate to excellent ticket sales, and that goes for NASCAR or IRL or anyone. Sponsor packages, promotional giveaways, all those tickets bring people to the track but they don't translate to ticket revenue.

TV ratings maybe stable but those ratings can best be described as treading water. You're up against NASCAR and cheap, pre-packaged reality shows on your prime network that you pay to be on. What are you going to do when the price goes up?

The series may have some stability to it but when your benchmark for stability is gasping for life you should have some concern there. Comparing the ALMS to other series is a desperate point to prove the value of the series. NASCAR, Grand-Am, the IRL, they don't make a difference at all when Don Panoz is looking at the books and seeing current and anticipated losses across the board. I understand you want to see the series survive and prosper and it's a nice thought but I don't see anything right now that would lead me to believe the ALMS is even close to being prosperous.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by 6157

Says who? Tom Kjos, or Murphy the Bear I always get them confused, wrote an article at the beginning of the year showing piece by piece how IMSA's, and in turn ALMS', revenue has dropped since 2008. Profits, if they have any, aren't nearly as healthy as they once were.

Gate attendance doesn't always translate to excellent ticket sales, and that goes for NASCAR or IRL or anyone. Sponsor packages, promotional giveaways, all those tickets bring people to the track but they don't translate to ticket revenue.

TV ratings maybe stable but those ratings can best be described as treading water. You're up against NASCAR and cheap, pre-packaged reality shows on your prime network that you pay to be on. What are you going to do when the price goes up?

The series may have some stability to it but when your benchmark for stability is gasping for life you should have some concern there. Comparing the ALMS to other series is a desperate point to prove the value of the series. NASCAR, Grand-Am, the IRL, they don't make a difference at all when Don Panoz is looking at the books and seeing current and anticipated losses across the board. I understand you want to see the series survive and prosper and it's a nice thought but I don't see anything right now that would lead me to believe the ALMS is even close to being prosperous.

Not feeding the troll(s) just defending Mr. Audi

Well ALMS is the headline series for IMSA, but it has identity problems.

So its more fair IMHO to compare it to a fairly anonymous Camping Truck Series fully of NASCAR Sprint Cup rejects and never-will-be's. Its also comparable to Nationwide because of Cup Regulars it visits now 3 road courses a year, has heavy hitters like Jacques Villeneuve and Marcus Ambrose in it and gets comparable ratings as well.

I showed you two very valid links to current ratings or stories about falling/flagging ratings in 2010 for both series.

ALMS, Camping World (exclusively on Cable) and Nationwide (almost exclusively on Cable) all get around .6 give or take for every event.

Nationwide gets a slight bump from Cup regulars, but after Danica's first race in the series, Nationwide ratings have not gone up as a result of her running the series, its a flop.

Camping World, as I said full of rejects and never-will-be's, gets about a .5 on average on Speed. Just about any ALMS races on Speed does between .4 and .6

Man, repeating myself but WTH, Indy Car does .8-1.0 for any race that isn't the Indy 500 (on ABC). But the Indy 500 is beaten solidly by the Coke 600 later that day, for what many call an extremely boring race.

When Indy Car switches to Versus, say good night to ratings. It drops in the toilet (.2.-.4) and with the decisions for 2012, some people like Robin Miller and even Gordon Kirby try and spin it, but by judging the internet reaction, 2011 is look more like a lame duck season with management pinning all its hopes on 2012 that they'll be saved by maybe a 2nd or 3rd engine supplier.

Since you like to use the economy for the excuse why things don't go forward and we try to tell its much bigger than that, why not give me some reasons beyond the Indy 500 why any manufacturer not currently connected to a specialist engine builder (Ilmor, Cosworth, Judd, Zytek & Mugen) or a company with bespoke engine building experience (Benz, BMW, Porsche and TTE) will be falling all over themselves to build an engine for this series?

Then you can explain to me that while ALMS' steady as she goes ratings are nothing to write home about, it could be worst. It does equal or slightly worst than Indy Car on ABC. I say its up because people are curious what this Docu-drama stuff looks like. Some say its like a infomercial for the series, which actually isn't a bad thing and better than just about any other direct marketing they have tried (which is largely NONE).

Why would you attach yourselves to a game like Forza 2, when GT is THE game in this gender and by default has many ex-ALMS series cars in it? It would have been fairly easy to implement the ALMS series inside the game, it already has Laguna Seca and La Sarthe, how much harder would it have been? There still many people that play Sports Car GT, the de-facto ALMS game for CS. This is vastly more than those who play IRL based games and GT kills any NASCAR related game.

What's so hard to understand down at Road Atlanta?

[marc sproule]

I know this isn't nice, but it's funny, in a sad way of course.

This was told to me by a friend who's been involved in the promotion of all kinds of racing, including Grand Am and ALMS.

"What's the difference between a Grand Am race and an ALMS race?"

"The spectator."

[Speed-King]

ALMS, Camping World (exclusively on Cable) and Nationwide (almost exclusively on Cable) all get around .6 give or take for every event.

Just out of interest: Where do you get the ALMS on Speed numbers from?

From what I've heard, ALMS's network races only are around .5 lately... so I would be surprised to see them get the same on a specialty network...

[TWK]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

ALMS' ticket sales and TV ratings have been stable the past couple of years, with Sebring recording 2008-like numbers inspite of the snooze fest that Peugeot made the overall battle into.

False. Attendance and TV ratings both dropped through 2009, less at the beginning of the year (Sebring was down just 5%), and accelerating (Petit was down 10% and Laguna Seca 16%).

I'd expect that Sebring, Mosport and Petit are holding up (and will) because they are "cherry picked" by both entrants and fans, who pick a race to attend, and more "pass" on the nearby event to go to the "big" event. Mosport will always hold up pretty well relative to US sprint venues since it is the only ALMS race in Canada and is close to the large population center in Toronto.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by 6157

Says who? Tom Kjos, or Murphy the Bear I always get them confused...

Then you have a problem in differentiating between serious commentary and rumors/humor.

[chernaudi]

Basically, if it's promotion that's the problem, then IMSA got complacant with the factories doing huge promo work for the series. Without the factory teams, there's no promo, at least not what it was back then. Does one think that Grand Am has good promo? They have to get NASCAR drivers to run races to get any serious media attention, and even then it doesn't help their ratings much.

Sportscar racing, since the early 90's especially, has had an identity crisis. Too many sanctioning bodies for fans to get their head around unless one's a die hard. When one thinks stock car racing, they think NASCAR, when they think Indy Car racing, they think the IRL(or CART, pre-1995), but sportscar racing, what do you think they think of. It'll be hard to get an answer out of all but the most die hard of racing fans.

IMSA may've bombed in marketing by relying too much on factory teams to do most of it for them, but the same can be said of Grand Am riding on NASCAR's coat tails, and of the LMS, as attendance was only good for races that Audi and Peugeot sold free tickets for.

That alienation of the average race fan is biting NASCAR now, but IMSA and sportscar racing in general isn't in a much better position because they have no marketing clout, which isn't any better than bad marketing. Certianly, they did capitalize somewhat(namely the ALMS) from 2004-2008, but with no marketing, you can only plateau or fall, and sportscar racing has certianly plateau'd

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Just out of interest: Where do you get the ALMS on Speed numbers from?

From what I've heard, ALMS's network races only are around .5 lately... so I would be surprised to see them get the same on a specialty network...

They are not easy to find and I am getting my numbers from 2009. If I sub'ed to Sport Media News Network, then they are easy to get or a Neilson Family they would be easy to get, but since we're not and I'm not going to pay for access.. You look where you can.

If you want me to post the link to the ratings for the last Docu-drama on CBS (which was a .8) I can.

I also said it does between a .4 and .6 so .5 would be correct -

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by marc sproule

I know this isn't nice, but it's funny, in a sad way of course.

This was told to me by a friend who's been involved in the promotion of all kinds of racing, including Grand Am and ALMS.

"What's the difference between a Grand Am race and an ALMS race?"

"The spectator."

Sad but true, road racing once had fans from multiple genres, now what fans it has left have been divided and separated in a political move similar to Washington.

Until U.S. major road racing series make an effort to get back the diverse fans it once had, it is good if it merely grows side-ways.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

+1

Based on what information?

You're still going to end up with largely a favorite and a couple of pretenders to the throne in LMP.

You will not return back to 2007/2008 levels (which is only a starting point I might add) without somebody proving they can beat the diesels without diesel technology.

I should also add, that demand will be heavy for the combination that accomplishes that task, if its made available to the public.

In 2007/8 I was predicting the ALMS could be in trouble if the series didn't cater for it's privateers.

One by one they disappeared but the cry was quality over quantity, TV ratings, ROI etc. Obviously it all came crashing down at the first bump in the road just as IMSA GTP, FIA WSC and FIA GT did.

The ALMS is what it is today because for the first good few years of it's existence it was effectively an international sportscar series based in the US. A great many of it's manufactuers, teams, drivers and fans were from Europe.

Audi's program was cut back when the economy went down the pan but for years previously they'd been urging the ACO to expand the reach of this form of racing as they want to race not only in North America but also Europe and Asia.

Audi supported the LMS from it's inception but they, then Peugeot and Aston Martin found it did not deliver what they reguired. As competing in both the LMS and ALMS is out of the question the formation of the ILMC was the obvious solution and as we now know the GT2 manufactuers also want a part of the pie.

All you hear is complaints about the ACO this, ACO that rather than looking closer to home. Not to long again there were claims cost-capped 2011 P2's were not possible yet now we hear of multiple manufactuers already well underway with cars and the likes of HPD have engines up and running.

If people in the US believe the route of the ALMS's problems is the ACO then split away, then again it's not as if Grand-Am has been a roaring success.

You can go down the GT only route when the GT2/GT3 classes are already reaching their peak or hope the LMP manufactuers to build bespoke ALMS chassis, neither of which I see being viable if you want the series to reach the heights of 2008.

I really don't think you guys in the US realise what a great series you have on your doorstep and how it can grow by embracing the 2011 regulations which encourage new cars in P1, cost-capped P2's, and builds on GT2 with an amateur class.

At the very worst you will have a season or two similar to this one but with a class structure that is looking to the future. The season will also be capped by outstanding Sebring and PLM grids consisting of the best sportscars in the world.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by JAG

In 2007/8 I was predicting the ALMS could be in trouble if the series didn't cater for it's privateers.

One by one they disappeared but the cry was quality over quantity, TV ratings, ROI etc. Obviously it all came crashing down at the first bump in the road just as IMSA GTP, FIA WSC and FIA GT did.

The ALMS is what it is today because for the first good few years of it's existence it was effectively an international sportscar series based in the US. A great many of it's manufactuers, teams, drivers and fans were from Europe.

Audi's program was cut back when the economy went down the pan but for years previously they'd been urging the ACO to expand the reach of this form of racing as they want to race not only in North America but also Europe and Asia.

Audi supported the LMS from it's inception but they, then Peugeot and Aston Martin found it did not deliver what they reguired. As competing in both the LMS and ALMS is out of the question the formation of the ILMC was the obvious solution and as we now know the GT2 manufactuers also want a part of the pie.

All you hear is complaints about the ACO this, ACO that rather than looking closer to home. Not to long again there were claims cost-capped 2011 P2's were not possible yet now we hear of multiple manufactuers already well underway with cars and the likes of HPD have engines up and running.

If people in the US believe the route of the ALMS's problems is the ACO then split away, then again it's not as if Grand-Am has been a roaring success.

You can go down the GT only route when the GT2/GT3 classes are already reaching their peak or hope the LMP manufactuers to build bespoke ALMS chassis, neither of which I see being viable if you want the series to reach the heights of 2008.

I really don't think you guys in the US realise what a great series you have on your doorstep and how it can grow by embracing the 2011 regulations which encourage new cars in P1, cost-capped P2's, and builds on GT2 with an amateur class.

At the very worst you will have a season or two similar to this one but with a class structure that is looking to the future. The season will also be capped by outstanding Sebring and PLM grids consisting of the best sportscars in the world.

You really should not be so all inclusive with some of your statements. Not all look to the future ALMS with such pessimism.






L.P.

[chernaudi]

IMSA can fix things and get some momentum going forward, but only if the can get the big factories to support private teams(like Audi did with Champion in the R8 days, but with no more Champion Racing, who'll run cars of Audi if they offer customer versions of the R18 or offer up the R15 as a customer car program? They'd better be better than Kolles if that happens, though a future HPD/Acura/Honda Racing program with Highcroft looks promising), or they can get some really good privateer teams with good financing and good equipment in there.

On the latter, I'm sorry, but cars with questionable reliablity and running bored out 20 year old F1 engines in them isn't the answer. Grand Am isn't much better than IMSA as far as sponsorship and grid sizes, and the LMS imploded after Le Mans at Algarve. And the ACO is facing the facts that the ALMS and Grand Am have faced off and on for years. And that is that the economy is interconnected, and if the US is struggling, so is much of the rest of the world, and vice versa.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Basically, if it's promotion that's the problem, then IMSA got complacant with the factories doing huge promo work for the series. Without the factory teams, there's no promo, at least not what it was back then. Does one think that Grand Am has good promo? They have to get NASCAR drivers to run races to get any serious media attention, and even then it doesn't help their ratings much.

Sportscar racing, since the early 90's especially, has had an identity crisis. Too many sanctioning bodies for fans to get their head around unless one's a die hard. When one thinks stock car racing, they think NASCAR, when they think Indy Car racing, they think the IRL(or CART, pre-1995), but sportscar racing, what do you think they think of. It'll be hard to get an answer out of all but the most die hard of racing fans.

IMSA may've bombed in marketing by relying too much on factory teams to do most of it for them, but the same can be said of Grand Am riding on NASCAR's coat tails, and of the LMS, as attendance was only good for races that Audi and Peugeot sold free tickets for.

That alienation of the average race fan is biting NASCAR now, but IMSA and sportscar racing in general isn't in a much better position because they have no marketing clout, which isn't any better than bad marketing. Certianly, they did capitalize somewhat(namely the ALMS) from 2004-2008, but with no marketing, you can only plateau or fall, and sportscar racing has certianly plateau'd

They didn't capitalize. Sports Car GT sold well for a PC game. The PSX game was so bad (compared to later games like GT) that they should have tried to get ISI who did SCGT and now does rFactor to do a new game for the new console platforms (then PS2, Dreamcast and Xbox).

That's just form of marketing and an effective one.

A manufacturers midway is another effective tool. This is largely what the NHRA does for marketing and allowing fans access to the teams as they prepare their cars.

There's is nothing wrong with copying another series tactics. NHRA pretty much as the demographic and fan base its going to have. But this is mostly powered by the fact its the more affordable form of motorsport in the country and unlike so many other form of racing you can use your daily driver. So there's a personal attachment and of course there's the desire to go faster and faster until you get to Top Fuel. Most people never make it to Top Fuel or Nitro Funny Car, but almost everybody started out in NHRA Stock or Super Stock and that's something NASCAR fans can related too as well.

So as I have been saying for YEARS, the ALMS is doing a poor job and leaves it up to marketing people that work for manufactures or track promoters. Murphy reports the Baltimore Street Race for a shared weekend with Indy Car is pretty much a done deal. Now in a market with not a ton of options for you entertainment dollar but in a urban area, this will likely have a good turnout. But that will happen mostly by accident and because the quality of racing is likely to improve from this year to next, they will have felt - Job Done.

It really shouldn't surprise ALMS that people want the series, most do. If I was Road America I wouldn't count my chickens before its hatched. By year 3 of the Nationwide series being down in Mexico, attendance dropped dramatically.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by JAG

In 2007/8 I was predicting the ALMS could be in trouble if the series didn't cater for it's privateers.

Just what would you have done to embraced the "privateer" tie the other teams arms behind their backs so they can't win?

I don't understand.

There was a 7 way battle for the front in 2007 and De Ferran was added about mid-way to 2008, making it 8 cars, for 3 podium positions.

Intesport was NOT A FACTOR period. They were already "liberal" with the performance balancing and how many times did somebody say "Oh Jon Field has been turning some of the fastest speeds on the straights and he's looking to take it to the front". See that's FAKE CHEERLEADING. When Field blew past Diaz on a early restart, they keyed the radio and said "Don't worry about him, he'll be out of your way soon enough". He is an also-ran. Given the fastest are several times, even lead Long Beach earlier this year and you're trying to tell me this little team that could leaves a fitting not tight enough and has a FUEL LEAK, which delayed them in the pits and put them out of the running for the win.

So even when you GIFT WRAP victories for them, they snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Do I really have to mention leading at Utah?

What about Drayson? The two opportunities they have had to be competitive, same thing, when it comes time to put up or shut up, they shut up and say "Gee wiz Wally, I tried my best".

I am really hoping one of them can break through at Road America, but that's not likely. Fuel Economy for both of them is likely to bite them in the arse, because to make power you have to burn fuel. The dirty secret is that the LMP2 cars can go through the corners faster and thus lap times are about the same. Add in shorter pit stops and better fuel economy, unless there's late caution or flat tire, they will not threaten to win.

You can't help them more than they have. Its not the series fault that the Lola chassis is more sensitive to ride height than the other cars. Its not the series fault that DNF's continue to hound Dyson Racing. These are decisions made by the series.

So when you say "embracing the privateers". I have no idea what your talking about. Because its likely a first line operation from Indy Car could take a Lola/Judd combination and win with it, by eliminating the mistakes (preparation) and keeping up with the pace of leaders with better drivers, better engineers and not just straight away speed.

I personally think Dale White's operation is one of the best and you're not seeing it at its best because its handicapped.

Now an extreme view of what your saying could be, kick all the manufacturers out and then you would be left with Intersport, Drayson, Autocon, Muscle Milk and yes Highcroft.

Greg Pickett is getting the most value or ROI on this season. While his lap times are slower than both Fields and about the same as Drayson's, he's been in victory lane twice and only 7 points behind Highcroft. If Massen and Graf where the lead drivers, who's to say they might be leading this championship?

LTC said back at the start of the season when he was grading drivers with A, B or C ratings, he said the only way for Muscle Milk to win was to put in Pickett for the min amount of time and take it to the finish with Graf in the car. So that strategy clearly works, they have been on the podium every single race and usually finishing 2nd to Highcroft when they haven't won.

That should really tell you how bad Dyson's reliability woes are and the fact they can only play spoiler the rest of the way and not even a threat to do that very much.

Support The Privateers sounds too much like Support The Troops.

[TWK]

For Jag, and others who get on the "privateers forever," and "manufacturers are evil" trip (sorry if that overstates your point of view).

Here's dj4money, and it's a good point:

Now an extreme view of what your saying could be, kick all the manufacturers out and then you would be left with Intersport, Drayson, Autocon, Muscle Milk and yes Highcroft.

Add Dyson in, and what do you have? ALMS 2010 - a disaster.

Let's face it. They are not worth watching.