|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
11 Sep 2022, 15:52 (Ref:4125711) | #51 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,137
|
Quote:
Nevertheless I don't see what good it would have done. Even if Russell would have passed it, then what? How would that have brought the SC any closer to the leader? |
|||
|
11 Sep 2022, 16:45 (Ref:4125713) | #52 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,857
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
11 Sep 2022, 17:17 (Ref:4125715) | #53 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,620
|
A car (Williams?) near crashed the support truck that was moving Ricciardo's car. I can't believe that nobody is talking about that.
https://twitter.com/sempre_negativ_/...80818919292928 |
||
__________________
Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed! by NaBUrean Prodooktionz naburu38.itch.io |
11 Sep 2022, 18:10 (Ref:4125718) | #54 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 12,044
|
Quote:
I get why and I understand the yellows or reds for track entry given but I'm also used to it. No US track would have been anything other than SC for track entry and had at a truck blocking the right of the track while moving the car |
||
|
11 Sep 2022, 22:13 (Ref:4125755) | #55 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,976
|
Another shambolic safety car / race director cock-up. At least this time the results were a fair reflection of the way the race was going, unlike Abby Dabby.
It really is time to tear up the whole safety car programme and start again on finding a way of neutralising a race in a way that is both safe and fair. Even if the race had re-started for one or two laps, Verstappen would have found his hard-earned 17 second lead taken away from him through no fault of his won and no merit on the part of his competitors. In this respect, the application of the safety car at any time goes counter to the ethos of a sport. |
||
__________________
The older I get, the faster I was. |
11 Sep 2022, 22:22 (Ref:4125757) | #56 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 857
|
I couldn't manage to keep a straight face when I read that Ferrari have criticised the FIA and suggested that they ought to have dome a better job.Maybe their spokesman should get a mirror installed somewhere handy.
|
|
|
11 Sep 2022, 23:46 (Ref:4125761) | #57 | ||||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,024
|
Quote:
You do the safe thing and then solve for fairness later. Quote:
Improve the fairness. Yes. Let’s not forget the primary reason for cautions, SC and red flags. I am talking very generally as I have not seen the incident in question I’m sure you agree, but just in case you were weighting the two things equally |
||||
__________________
Brum brum |
12 Sep 2022, 02:50 (Ref:4125776) | #58 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,593
|
Don't know what happened with that SC period but seemed to take a very long time for the car to come out and then pick up the wrong driver (although the cars out of position were eventually waved through and the leader was picked up - that happens).
I thought Croft's fascination in commentary about red-flagging the race instead made no sense at all - apart from anything else, a red flag that late in a race generally means finish of the race (although that may have changed, I'll admit to being rusty on that one). The SC definitely needed to come out but the whole process seemed slow, hesitant, moribund - maybe the coverage made it look worse? Also slow to get the SC off track at the end but then none of us know what was happening in race control. Ultimately, the SC is not a perfect animal in all respects and will continue to be that way - personally I had no problem with Abu Dhabi last year and also none with how this GP finished. |
||
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
12 Sep 2022, 02:56 (Ref:4125778) | #59 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,496
|
Quote:
Full course yellow, all competition stops until the vehicles/people are safe and incident is recovered. Then race again. The race can formally begin when the leading vehicle crosses the start finish line. |
||
|
12 Sep 2022, 05:56 (Ref:4125787) | #60 | |
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 279
|
Using a VSC does, at least, properly neutralise the race. If the tyres lose temp and pressure it should be well within the driver's skillset to deal with it.
Save the SC for the most serious of situation and get rid of the 'wave by' rule. |
|
|
12 Sep 2022, 07:33 (Ref:4125795) | #61 | ||
Team Crouton
20KPINAL
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 39,934
|
This. For the rest of the season we (and the other drivers) are just looking for the scraps that fall from Max's plate.
|
||
__________________
280 days...... |
12 Sep 2022, 08:43 (Ref:4125803) | #62 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,692
|
What a shame after some great racing, it ends disappointingly under the SC, thanks to some serious mismanagement from race control. They should have let Russell and the others past earlier. And the sooner we get rid of the idiotic SC free pass rule the better.
However Ferrari once again threw the race away with that second pitstop when they were looking good for a win. They might as well as hand Max the championship trophy now. Good drive by Russell for 3rd Great drive by Danny, finally back on form. Shame what happened at the end. And well done de Vries, solid drive to earn two points in his first race. A candidate for a full time ride in 2023 |
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
12 Sep 2022, 13:31 (Ref:4125830) | #63 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,482
|
Quote:
I totally agree with your last two points, but disagree on the one before that. I think Ferrari knew they would not win this one. It is Italy and you want to win, yeah, but they knew it would look worse if they fell flat and fumbled again, so they took a more conservative route and took what points were on offer. RBR is just too fast for them, and they know it. |
||
__________________
Drive faster and longer than the rest ...in anything but a Honda... |
12 Sep 2022, 13:32 (Ref:4125831) | #64 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,187
|
Quote:
Max had been faster and more consistent on all the tyres they tried out. |
|||
__________________
Let's make better mistakes tomorrow! |
12 Sep 2022, 14:55 (Ref:4125842) | #65 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,976
|
Quote:
I think the VSC system could be made a bit more sophisticated in order to enable it to cover more serious incidents. I'm thinking the addition of an overall speed limit (probably very low) where the situation warrants it. And a way of telling drivers to stick to one side of the track in the area of an incident. The 'wave by' rule absolutely has to go. But the safety car could go too if a more agile red flag procedure was put in place. So when needed, stop on the grid in single file in running order (including lapped cars). Tyre blankets and brake fans can go on but no other work including changing tyres. two minute warning to clear the grid, then one warm-up lap, stop on the grid, and start as normal except for the single file. So broadly, extend the VSC into the safety car's territory at one end, and extend the red flag rule in from the other end. Voila! No safety car. |
|||
__________________
The older I get, the faster I was. |
12 Sep 2022, 15:51 (Ref:4125851) | #66 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,620
|
I would argue that IndyCar and Nascar pace cars drive much slower, especially in narrow circuits.
|
||
__________________
Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed! by NaBUrean Prodooktionz naburu38.itch.io |
12 Sep 2022, 17:46 (Ref:4125870) | #67 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,955
|
Quote:
no perfect solutions (and F1 is notorious for atypical situations cropping up to point out gaps in the rules) but perhaps if every car had one (extra) set of new softs held in reserve and only to be used in the cases of a late race re starts? would that additional level of safety outweigh the loss of advantage naturally earned by those who had saved a fresh set of softs? it was suggested earlier or in another thread that the trade off is between safety and fairness...i would argue that entertainment is also a factor that should be considered. a race finishing under green is of course more entertaining but having an accident during a re start would not be entertaining/a significantly worse way for a race to end...so in those cases i would be inclined to prioritize safety and entertainment at the expense of fairness. that or just find a way to be happy with the occasional race that ends under a SC? |
|||
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
13 Sep 2022, 10:35 (Ref:4125950) | #68 | ||
Team Crouton
20KPINAL
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 39,934
|
Agreed. Max is head and shoulders above the rest at the moment, he's consistent, making great overtakes and is driving what is clearly the fastest car. So much so that it doesn't really matter that much now where he starts on the grid. The championship is over bar some catastrophe for Max (which obviously I'm not hoping for).
|
||
__________________
280 days...... |
13 Sep 2022, 12:10 (Ref:4125957) | #69 | ||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,114
|
Quote:
I understand the safety imperative of the full safety car. I advocate stopping the race and restarting with drivers released at intervals equivalent to their track positions before. Wouldn't that work? There may be some faults, but wouldn't it work on the whole? Similar to how the VSC works now, except with no free pit stops. |
||
|
13 Sep 2022, 14:21 (Ref:4125971) | #70 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,112
|
First, let me say I have not watched the race yet as I was out of town over the weekend and unable to watch it.
Quote:
Quote:
Overall, I think we see complaints around restarts that are late in the race and the impact on the outcome. As the restart (or potential restart) happens on or just before the last lap, the impact to who wins is more apparent. Meaning you can have restarts at the beginning of the race that heavily impact the race results, but for some reason people are more accepting of those vs. late race. In short, It think anything that makes the restart more complex such as allowing lapped cars to pass, or red flag and then rebuild the gaps in the field, all would take extra time to me. And if we are in the final stages of the race, that can create situations in which the race is more likely to finish under yellow. Lastly, I tend to think that ANY safety car rules will create winners and losers in that someone will benefit and someone will not. And in late race situations, this creates driver and fan drama as those who were disadvantaged in any given scenario will feel that the rules screwed them. Quick example... Allow lapped cars to pass. Takes long to do and race finishes under yellow. Second place felt he had pace to make a pass for first. So he feels he was screwed. Don't allow lapped cars to pass. Get back to racing quicker, but second place has to fight through lapped cars and it prevents him from challenging for the lead. So he feels he was screwed. Richard Last edited by Richard C; 13 Sep 2022 at 14:45. |
|||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
13 Sep 2022, 14:27 (Ref:4125973) | #71 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,707
|
I think that Richard has hit the nail on the head here. ANYTHING unusual that happens ANYTIME during the race could quite easily change the race result compared to if these things didn't happen. This doesn't have to be just safety cars, it could be something (admittedly more natural/less artificial) like a rain storm, or something more 'mechanical' like debris/oil on the track, but (any of) these things happen.
Racing drivers (and their biggest fans) can always come up with reasons as to why they would have won the race if only something had or hadn't happened! |
||
__________________
Incognito: An Italian phrase meaning Nice Gearchange! |
13 Sep 2022, 15:42 (Ref:4125987) | #72 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,493
|
I don't think the 'lapped cars' rule is about closing up the leaders, but more about removing the need for a whole bunch of blue flags on the restart.
Take the following as a possible order behind the SC: 1,15,16,2,3,17,4,18,5,6,19,20,7..... Showing the blue flag to the correct cars, and them knowing how many cars to let through makes the restart chaotic. All while the field is bunched up. Get rid of the lapped cars, and the problem goes away..... |
||
|
13 Sep 2022, 17:47 (Ref:4125996) | #73 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,112
|
Quote:
Richard |
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
13 Sep 2022, 20:52 (Ref:4126008) | #74 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,976
|
But in that example the leader has already had to get past the lapped cars. Racing drivers have a great capacity for feeling "screwed" when things don't go there way. That doesn't mean it's actually so.
|
||
__________________
The older I get, the faster I was. |
13 Sep 2022, 21:02 (Ref:4126009) | #75 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,976
|
Quote:
The VSC is so obviously the fairest way of neutralising a race, so I think the FIA should be putting its efforts into developing the procedure so that it can cover more situations. I can only think of two scenarios where a more sophisticated VSC protocol wouldn't work: 1. When there is too much debris on the track so there is no safe path through. 2. When injury or barrier repairs would make the VSC period unreasonably long. In those cases there would have to be a red flag (as there currently is). However there is definitely scope to streamline the red flag procedure too. |
|||
__________________
The older I get, the faster I was. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
[Official] Miami Grand Prix 2022: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 5 | Born Racer | Formula One | 110 | 13 May 2022 12:53 |
[Official] Australian Grand Prix 2022: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 3 | Born Racer | Formula One | 97 | 16 Apr 2022 23:10 |
[Official] Saudi Arabian Grand Prix 2022: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 2 | Born Racer | Formula One | 167 | 5 Apr 2022 12:33 |
[Official] Bahrain Grand Prix 2022: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 1 of 22 | Born Racer | Formula One | 152 | 24 Mar 2022 20:01 |
[Official] Italian Grand Prix 2020: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 8 | Born Racer | Formula One | 289 | 10 Sep 2020 18:05 |