Should Driver Marshalling be Compulsory?

[johnw]

Originally posted by Denis Bassom
......As for donations to the marshalls, the BARC race entry form includes a box to make a voluntary donation to them. I don't where the money goes but I hope you chaps (and ladies) get something you want out of it.

I believe that it goes straight into the Marshals draw/raffle or whatever it's called. On my Donington day, one of the duties was to assist in randomly selecting marshals names for prizes, which were mainly cash, but also included fleeces from the F Saloon chaps.

[johnw]

Originally posted by Stephen Green
I would be interested to hear from a few drivers/teams what they would like marshals to do if we were to spend a day with the team.

Originally posted by johnw on the "What Benefits" thread on the Marshals Forum.
If any of you would like to spend time with our KUMHO BMW series, count this as an open invitation.

Using datalogging devices on each car to police the regs, means that they all need to be downloaded and analysed in the hour or so after qualifying, and the top 3 in each class after the race. You would be most welcome to assist in this process. Keyboard skills and a resolute personality would be an advantage.

Spending time with an individual driver would be easily fixed too, although if you are into washing things, I'm probably not your best bet.

Stephen it's going to be different with each driver and probably each Championship too. If the driver is on his own then assisting with final prep - changing wheels, checking tyre pressures, fuelling, scrutineering, making hurried changes to things that have been OK for ten years but which todays scrute deems illegal, oiling the extinguisher pull cable that has mysteriously rusted in place since last week, rear view mirror adjustments, holding the large mirror whilst driver checks image, taking the car to the assembly area whilst driver has a pee then walks ostentatiously to his vehicle, running back to the paddock to collect forgotten helmet, balaclava, gloves.
During qualifying, thinking up new answers to the "How did it look, how did it sound" questions. Commiserating, looking earnest and trying not to laugh at the excuses for your drivers lack of success (unless you are lucky enough to be with the pole winner, in which case worshiping the ground on which he walks would be a good ploy).
Then off for a good breakfast/lunch/bag of crisps/indescribably 'orrible burger.
Returning in time for a check of fluids (the car), brakes, tyres, pressures, rub down with oily rag (the driver) and a spit and polish for the car.
Sort of repeat peformance after the race except that no more valeting is required, as the following week we get a new marshal who will need an opportunity.
Bet you can't wait?
All this with a very reliable ultimate driving machine, you might be busy with the single seater lads or have to do three engine changes and a reshell with the Touring cars.
Look forward to seeing you next season.
John

[Chris Y]

Originally posted by johnw
..understanding why there is still a need for Timekeepers when we have all invested(?) in transponders

John, could you possibly take a few moments to explain the transponder system to the rest of us drivers? Possibly in a new thread in the racers' forum?

I think a lot of drivers understand how the actual transponders themselves work (or not), but not how the times get on the computer, and then onto the little bits of paper.

For example, I was told recently that the 'sponders give one lap time, and the car breaking a beam of light (+ manual pressing of a button?) gives another lap time, and the 'official' laptime is some sort of aggregate of the two, with some computerised adjustment or other?

Certainly seems a little complicated, compared to what most people imagine...

[275 GTB-4]

YES....to give them an appreciation of what Marshals do, the difficulties we face and to understand what we can do for them.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally posted by Denis Bassom
Evil pumpkin

Sounds like you talk to each other more than we do.

The marshalls over here do walk around the pits during the break but are usually in large packs (if that is the correct term for a collection of marshalls) and don't seem to talk the drivers that much. On occassion when they do the comments can be less than constructive in building a relationship ("you don't want to race this Japanese pile of junk you want a Ford" springs to mind, particularly annoying after having just beaten all the Fords in my class and the ones above it).

Yes that's a bit unnecessary alright - but you'll always get the begrudgers in any group - just a shame it was a marshal.

Possibly it's worth saying hi to the roving gangs of marshals? Personally, if I see a driver working on a car - or talking with a group of people - I will tend to just smile and pass by because I assume they're busy! I'll only talk if they say hello first or if there's something I really want to know about the car!

Could be no-one's talking because they think the other group won't want to talk!

Originally posted by Denis Bassom

Perhaps this is the result of a national trait or part of a 'them and us' attitude that has developed over time.

No I don't think so - I think it's a function of size. In Ireland for cars, we have one circuit in the South and one in the North. And they tend to be visited by the same competitors. It's easy to get to know the drivers when you see them most weekends! It's a lot more difficult to achieve that kind of relationship when you're travelling all over to different circuits and it's a different group of marshals each weekend.

Originally posted by Denis Bassom

Regarding the tag along things, I was thinking more when you WEREN'T marshalling one weekend!!!

Weekend when I'm not marshalling? During racing season?

[Stacy]

Originally posted by johnw
Stacy, I'm obviously missing something, I don't at all understand the points above.
Just to be clear about our motives, getting drivers on the banks is nothing to do with supporting the meetings. It is an attempt to improve the communication between drivers and marshals. By understanding the pressures and constraints they work under, we have made changes in our regs that will assist them and us to get more of what we want.
How and what do you think that our new reg dilutes?
What is it that we give with one hand and take away with the other?

Hi John,

Understand your aims entirely and they are laudable. I think the question mark stems over giving someone class win points for marshalling. The issues with that seem to be;

1. You have already mentioned only a handful of drivers chase the championship, so the appeal of that is arguably limited to those few, not the majority. These few are the ones supporting every one of your meetings, and it seems a little odd to impose a variable on them when they should be supported.

2. Your championship is often very tight, thus these points will be important. In my view, and the view of those I canvassed, championships should be won on the track, not the hospitality unit, pitwall or grassy knoll.

3. You have a successful and competitive "saloon racing championship". I've already heard suggestions of including hillclimbs, sprints, and the marshalling points, which leaves the impression to an independant observer that there is a danger of turning a success story into the motorsport equivalent of The Generation Game. It's this which I think dilutes the racing.

Dont' get me wrong, I'm all for what you're trying to do and how about this, I will be marshalling at a meeting this year, but I'd question anything which influences a racing championship.

Anyway, Good game, good game. ;-)

Stacy

[johnw]

Chris Y
Not sure that it's worth another thread, but please copy it to one if you want. This is what I understand.

Transponders in the car send a unique identifier to the timing computer in Race Control via a loop permanently laid into the tarmac of the circuit. The results are printed directly from the computer.
There is no manual intervention required and every lap is recorded.
It was mandated to us (BARC members) by reason of a future cost stabilising measure, which would eliminate the need for human timekeepers, and their associated fees.

The reason that there are still human timekeepers is contingency against equipment failure, (and I guess from your question, because not all clubs are using transponders and there is a need to keep training folk).

I was expecting individual laps to be provided on the timesheets, as happens in BTCC, Tuscans and others. But this apparently costs the club more in equipment rental charges, which would have to be passed on to entry fees.

I must say that I see this as just a rip-off by MST or whomever provides the gear, as the data is there, and it cannot cost any more to provide it. I'd have thought that charging us £200 for a mandated unit that probably cost pennies to build, would have been sufficient for MST, but everyone wants a bigger slice.
Apologies for going off on one. Hope that it answers your question.
John

[MikeM]

Johnw, not sure if I have misunderstood you but if you go to the MST website after a meeting and open the pdf book (top right hand corner) for the meeting you want, you get all the lap times from practice and the race - every race and every driver.

[johnw]

Hi Stacy
Thanks for the reply, which partly explains the reason for your original - and my confusion.
That only a handful can do every round is because the rest have family holiday commitments; a shortage of cash; mechanical breakdowns or a life! For these folks, the opportunity of another ten points, might just keep them in the championship hunt. You will know that it is difficult to keep up grid sizes once folk who are on a tight budget face the fact that they can no longer win anything.
However, it is not a variable if drivers give up one day in the year. Most of our guys can be seen spectating during the season, so it's not really an imposition.

Good to see that you know we run, and will continue to run, close championships. If someone wins by doing a days marshalling under the new rules, it would show stupidity on someone else's part. It's not going to happen.

One other reason for wanting all our drivers to marshal for a day, is that they might then encourage their supporters to do the same. Maybe we could grow the marshal numbers from folk who are already at the circuit, and might well be happy to get involved, if they knew what is required.

Thanks for the successful compliment, but best to check and not believe everything you hear or solicit. The only events are races. The only extra points are the marshalling ones.

Come and marshal at one of our rounds, but get your name down early. Full grids next year, closer racing, better policing, and new opportunities for different BMW models. You know its makes sense.

This is club racing we are talking, not F1.
Nice to hear from you, to hear from you, nice!
John

[johnw]

Mike M
That's correct. So why can't we have them at the race meeting itself without incurring extra charges?

[diz]

As I understand it, the transponder is purely for car identification. Every time a car crosses the light beam, it records a time which the transponder uses to identify which car it is. Previously this function was performed by one, or two, humans shouting "27, 42, 16, 9/52 [overlap]" etc. each time a car crossed the line" and they keyed these numbers into their computer. They still maintain a manual lap chart even now.
The transponders alone are capable of producing the times, lap charts etc., but MST say that the MSA won't accept transponder only timing for circuit racing, it must be light beam breaking. Whether this is true, or just a way of MST keeping the staffing numbers up, I don't know.
With regards to every lap time being published on the day, MST can produce this. It depends whether Race Information are willing to print it all. In NW FF1600, Tom Dooley occasionally does this for us.

[MikeM]

I guess it comes down to logistics? Photocopies, extra screens etc?

(At Oulton, there are connection points so if you bring a portable TV you can get real time details.)

It would be great to have but I can see some difficulties providing it.

[johnw]

Mr Diz
Obviously we need to find out exactly how it works. I can't see that it requires humans any more, otherwise there would only be a cost increase by using the electronics.
From my day at Donington, I wasn't aware of a light beam in use. The timekeepers present were shouting and writing car numbers on a "till roll", but I'm sure that they said that this was for only for training purposes.

Absolutely, every lap time is available. Printing is not an issue Mike as the Tuscans have all the info (albeit very small print) on the reverse of the qualy and race results.

No screens required as far as I can see.

I'll try to get clarification from MST. Their FAQ's don't get near this.

[MikeM]

Thanks, I'd be interested to know - if they can do for the Tuscans they can do it for anyone else. (Good job I'm used to reading small print outs at work!)

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by crazystu
Now you're asking!!
Would they get an invite?
Who'd sign the visas???
D'you know anyone who'd stump up the bail????

Careful Stu - you know that one of my other hats is a CoC one - albeit for Sprints!

[greenamex2]

MikeM - Top tip on the lap time analysis on the MST web site, didn't know about that!

[MikeM]

Glad to help - great if you have had a busy race! Also helps to see if some one just puts one quick lap in or runs at that speed consistently.

[Stacy]

Originally posted by johnw
Hi Stacy
That only a handful can do every round is because the rest have family holiday commitments; a shortage of cash; mechanical breakdowns or a life!

Thanks for the successful compliment, but best to check and not believe everything you hear or solicit. The only events are races. The only extra points are the marshalling ones.

Come and marshal at one of our rounds, but get your name down early. You know its makes sense.

Hi John,

We all know that people often make big sacrifices if you're chasing a championship, and I'd say in those cases a truly competitive nature will ensure the other commitments take a back seat for the duration. It's very easy to hide behind your car, or your prep or budget instead, and that's what will separate winners or losers. That level of commitment shouldn't be derided, I rather respect it.

Understand a little more now with your assumption that all drivers should do it, still to me sounds a little of an imposition but there you go.

As for the "rumours" they were I understand first mooted by you as it happens on your BMWDC website...! Funny old world how these things rumble out of control..

Anyway, I will be marshalling, but not at a BMW meet. I'll be spectating at a BMW meet or two though, as have a couple of my team this year..

By the way, anything happen about Luke Steven's "robust" move at Donington this year?

Stacy
"Didn't he do well?"

[johnw]

Hi Stacy
Maybe we need a phone call?
If your car is damaged or falls apart at a meeting, I don't think that is hiding behind it.
If you run out of money, it's a fact of life.
The reason behind us having 10 rounds counting out of 12 is to allow people to chase the title without having to impinge on families, business or whatever.
Lighten up. No derision intended, just having fun - and maybe that's what I'm on about. The level of commitment you describe would be perfect for aspiring professionals, but the majority of us are trying to have a laugh and enjoy the game.

Guess we will not agree about the marshalling, but "who cares wins".

Now the "rumours". The posts below, copied from the BMWRDC site might explain

johnw wrote:
Maybe we can get them to reverse the grid?
Posts: 23 Posted: 10 September 2003 at 5:53pm - IP Logged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was tongue in cheek guys!
I don't think that we could do it this year, due to the championship positions. You may remember that we tried some handicap races a few years ago with effectively reversed grids. I thought that the idea was great, but it lead to too many accidents as most people didn't understand the principle and tried to block their way through ten laps.
Could try it again though.
Why not suggest it to Trevor? He is looking for ideas for next year.
johnw

Posts: 23 Posted: 10 September 2003 at 5:55pm - IP Logged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's another idea
How about giving old people a start?

Old person

Just a bit of fun and trying to promote a discussion Stacy. I'm afraid that they didn't buy my "Old peoples adavantage" either.

Look forward to seeing you again.

And yes Luke was penalised by the club (Yellow Card) and the BARC (endorsement definitely, and fine, I believe.) There were others during the year, but not such high profile. Luke was much better at Thruxton, so maybe it works?

John
"Higher or Lower" (and I am running out)

[Stacy]

Originally posted by johnw
Hi Stacy
Maybe we need a phone call?
If your car is damaged or falls apart at a meeting, I don't think that is hiding behind it.

Hi,

No worries, not trying to stress you just maybe typing too quickly as I'm busy.

I'm a firm believer you make your own luck, and especially in motorsport at all levels. Some will always take a more professional approach to achieve their aims, and fair play to them.

For what it's worth I think you do a good job with the regs. There are indeed people on the grid with plenty of budget, but I don't think your regs advantage them to the point on unassailability.

Good news on the yellow card too. I got a lot of flak for that from my boys wot was there.

Stacy

"I'm in charge."
Come on, Play Your Cards Right doesn't count! ;-)

[greenamex2]

MikeM - Glad to help - great if you have had a busy race! Also helps to see if some one just puts one quick lap in or runs at that speed consistently.

More interested in working out when my FWD classmates tires are going to drop off and I can overtake them.

Unfortunately they don't seem to !!!

Bugger.

[johnw]

Originally posted by stacy

..... not trying to stress you just maybe typing too quickly as I'm busy.

No stress, I'm obviously not busy enough!
Thanks for note re regs. We're pleased with the way they are working. Some significant changes next year "pour encourager les autres."


Good news on the yellow card too. I got a lot of flak for that from my boys wot was there.
[/QUOTE]
Not sure why you are getting flak over our drivers, but hey it's not me so that's OK;-)


"I'm in charge."
Come on, Play Your Cards Right doesn't count! ;-) [/QUOTE]
Then I have to bow out gracefully as I don't understand why.

"Come on Anthea, give us a twirl"
John

[Woolley]

I've just got to this thread, so apologies for taking it back a little. The original question of should it be complulsory is, in my book, a definite 'no'. If someone is doing because they have to and don't want to none of us are going to take anything good from the experience. Encouraging drivers to join us for a day of fun and learning (on both sides) is to be applauded, because it increases the social contact at least.

I'm fully intending to take up Johnw's invite of spending a day with a team. I can't do anything mechanically useful, and I'll mostly be trying not to get in the way, but I will learn how the team approach the day, what they need to do, how they respond to accidents, incidents, mechanical problems or officialdom, and what they hope to acheive from the event. If that enables me to give them better assistance when they need my intervention, then that's good too.

And re the suggestion that we stop by and chat to the drivers at lunchtime, I'd love to. What exactly is a lunchtime?!

[johnw]

Wooley
We fervently hope to not have to do anything mechanically, so it should be a good fit.
This no lunch business is interesting. We used to have a break in the middle. What happened?
Must admit that having been deeply involved in our series policing, I don't think that I've seen another race on our bill for two years and have not been aware of breaks in the day.
Look forward to seeing you in the paddock next season.

[Cynic]

And re the suggestion that we stop by and chat to the drivers at lunchtime, I'd love to. What exactly is a lunchtime?!

John, you need to BE a marshal to understand this one. Lunchbreak is more commonly known as the time allowed for any red flags/ long incident clean ups etc...... And if it's a big meeting it's usually scheduled to tie in with the pit walk about (i.e 11am!)