Is IRL turning into CART?

[Purist]

Not to take away from Adelaide, but there is really only one good overtaking point (the end of the Brabham Straight). Thhe Ascari, or is it Senna, Esse is fast enough that passing can be an interesting proposition to say the least. The Victoria Park Hairpin has those bends leading up to it, so passing there is difficult. I suggested Bathurst because it is a good track. It has a long and recognized history. Also, It is in good repair, although right now they're rebuilding the pit complex.

I think I've come up with a reasonable and fairly realistic schedule, given events that have historically been part of the sport, and events that are presently part of it, not to mention events that while they may not be on the most exciting course, do draw a significant crowd, which overall is something US open wheel needs.

[Tim Northcutt]

In other words, we're getting the sponsorship and the split will be healed when remaining teams leave CC. With Penske as the spokesman here does this mean another franchise type of organization of owners is developing at the IRL now with TG presiding?

On the debate about ovals I personally like the lead changes and side by side racing that the ovals provide. I also really like the airport track. Cleveland has been a great race to watch. Courses where follow the leader situations persist just bore me to tears. Also, I believe that Indy truly is an exceptional race event. There is simply nothing else like it in all of racing and Indy will probably have to be the cornerstone of any reconciled series.

The number and mix of races may change, there may be all sorts of equipment variations and restrictions. But I think it is crucial that there be some flexibility to allow for team equipment tuning - preferably without mandatory leasing arrangements. I also think that it would be a shame to have a franchisee type structure or high cost structure develop which might pose an insurmountable barrier to some teams.

(Posted By Pilgrim)

On your first point concerning franchises, I hope they NEVER go back to that....it is one of the reasons why TG formed the IRL...to give more owners and drivers the opportunity to compete....

On your second point, I love ovals, too....and would like to see some classic road courses included....Road America, Mid-Ohio, Sears Point or Laguna Seca, to name a few, as part of the mix...if Watkins Glen can be plugged in and brought up to proper standards for these cars, great....

Now let's address equipment....On Windtunnel back before the Homestead race, TG flat out told Dave that leases are not mandatory....if he mis-spoke, OK....but that's what he said...I wish they would let teams buy the engines and take them to tuners or builders like Roush, Comptec, and Speedway Engines, like they did for the first 6 years of the Series, I would be all for it....

But the cost of an engine per the leasing is about $90,000 each engine this year (again, according the the Indy Star) and that has come down some from last year, when it was a little over $100,000 each....

The cost of a new chassis was listed many times in the Indy Star during May....the price tag is $309,000....the cost has gone down a little from last year....

Given those figures, I think the issue is more the splitting out of the sponsors, etc., than it is the cost....because those costs are very reasonable....and they are cheaper than the other Series....

The issues involved with finances, etc., would be solved with one series....overall fan base, ratings, etc., and ability to hook more sponsors into the mix would all improve with one series.....

and the quality of racing would be even better than we are seeing now in the IRL...and the racing has been incredibly good this year (with the exception of Motegi)

Those are my thoughts....

[Bob Riebe]

---'The number and mix of races may change, there may be all sorts of equipment variations and restrictions. But I think it is crucial that there be some flexibility to allow for team equipment tuning - preferably without mandatory leasing arrangements. I also think that it would be a shame to have a franchisee type structure or high cost structure develop which might pose an insurmountable barrier to some teams."---

The engine leasing absolutely has to go.
TG has to open the series to whom ever wants to build a chassis and to any engine that meets a basic formula (i.e. inches cubed per layout)
If he is going to try to build a series on driver hero worship, ala NASCAR, whilst making the equipment irrelevant he is going to fail. The sprint car drivers have regional following, not national, and the with few exceptions, the CART drivers are unknowns to the fans TG said were his target.
(The people I grew up with were more interested in the variety of equipment, than any driver)

Substituting one spec. series for another will have the same result. Especially since Tony George is the one who made a series because he said the way CART did things was wrong.

Marcus:
Indy car racing as now know, for the most part started with Jack Brahbam in 1961. You CANNOT separate the present from the past.
IRL exists because CART existed, which exists because USAC existed, to the logical end USAC existed because AAA existed and all these are known because the Brickyard was built.
The rules spats cannot be taken as unique to this time as similar spats have taken place since the Brickyard was built.
To any who wishes to check history, one reason the Offy was so dominant in the fifties, they tricked the rules makers to close the rules when Chrysler said they were going to enter their new hemi with the new opened rules. Does this sound familiar?
One cannot speak of one without the other, without sounding only semi-literate.
Bob

[rush1]

We can always get a schedule out of a unified series. The problem is getting the the owners of OWCS and George to sit down and get an agreement. Penske can get them together maybe but ultimately a deal has to come from these four. So its STILL about the issues in 1995. Who controls the seires and who reaps the profits, period.

And the rest is pure speculation. Tony George might have to cover some expenses incurred by the three amigos, plus a little profit perhaps. As I said before a seat for someone from this group on the IMS Board. Or maybe the three amigos own a percentage of this unified series (which I'm sure George will insist be called the IRL. This is what needs to be worket out. These are the "philosophical differences".

[Snrub]

There are a lot of complaints about the engine manufacturers messing up the IRL. I think they're both valid and invalid because it's a double edge sword. How do you say no to manufacturers who bring gobs of money to a sport and massively strengthened the IRL? Toyota and Honda are finicy companies and if pushed could leave the IRL just as easily as they did CART. On the same hand there is no doubt that they screwed with CART and now their screwing with the IRL.

I completely disagree that the IRL has a higher quality of drivers. I think it's about the same. I'm biased towards CART, but I honestly think I'm looking at the situation rationally and impartially.

As for the CART on the CART forum, it seems like everything is getting sensored lately. A while ago there were a lot of fights because CART was in a tense situation so I can understand why it has happened. I have to admit that I share some of the blame on that one, but at the time I think it was appropriate. On the RX-7 forum www.rx7club.com, we discuss absolutely everything in the Candian forum. The reason that the disarray works is because it's a small group of people (although more than the CART or IRL forums here) and because it's a fun environment there are fewer fights and problems!

[marcus]

Seems Ive stepped on a few toes , guess thats my job really

we as moderators are trying to sort a deal at present , and I have no dramas with letting this thread continue at the present time.

CHEERS
Marcus

[rustyfan]

Originally posted by rush1
We can always get a schedule out of a unified series. The problem is getting the the owners of OWCS and George to sit down and get an agreement. Penske can get them together maybe but ultimately a deal has to come from these four. So its STILL about the issues in 1995. Who controls the seires and who reaps the profits, period.

And the rest is pure speculation. Tony George might have to cover some expenses incurred by the three amigos, plus a little profit perhaps. As I said before a seat for someone from this group on the IMS Board. Or maybe the three amigos own a percentage of this unified series (which I'm sure George will insist be called the IRL. This is what needs to be worket out. These are the "philosophical differences".

What American open-wheel indycar racing needs is a Bernie Ecclestone. A dictator.

CART should be an obvious example of the fact that a board with several different opinions that try to run things doesn't work.

With that said, however, I don't think Tony George would be the best person to be the 'outward face' of indycar racing. He should step back and concentrate on working sponsors and run IMS etc - just like the France's did in NASCAR, when Bill stepped back and appointed Mike Helton the 'front man'.

Sure, things have turned to **** since Brian France took over his dad's role, but that's a different matter. Brian might have been the one bringing together both the 2.4 billion TV deal and the massive NEXTEL title sponsorship, but he suck at making race related decisions and he should have kept his hands off that.

Still, despite Brian's ideas like the championship playoff system or killing off the Southern 500 (DAMN YOU BRIAN!), NASCAR has everything going for it, and it sure hasn't come to that point because they had a board of people pulling in different directions.

I think, and this is just my highly personal guesswork, that the indycar split wouldn't have happened if the CART head honchos back in 1994 had realized the importance of Indianapolis and had been willing to compromise. Had they used a sense of tact they obviously lacked, they could most likely have worked Tony George into a deal he was satisfied with.

Alas, it was not to be, and here we are today.

[rustyfan]

On the topic of unification and the differences between the two camps, David Phillips over at SpeedTV has written an excellent article. You can read it here:

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/11448/

Sometimes I have felt that Phillips have been dangerously close to going down the same whiney road Robin Miller has chosen, but this article by Phillips is great and one I think is well worth the read.

[macdaddy]

One "innocent" thread gets closed, and somebody says "censorship"? I laugh. Don't worry Marcus - it's me who's been stepping on the toes lately. What people forget is that they cannot read the posts that "disappear" and their computer monitors don't always show "the big picture".

[JohnSSC]

Side note: I agree that the thread in question had all the potential for a major brouhaha and while sad that it closed before it's time (based on what I could see!) I do not view the action as "censorship." Someone did mention that though but I really don't think it the case.

Anyway, rustyfan makes a great point. A "benevolent dictator" would be great. Someone with a vison willing to drag everyone along, kicking and screaming. TG, imho, is not that sort of guy as I think his assessment of himself way overestimates his abilities. He should, however, be given a stupendous title, a really big office and some harmless but important looking things to do while the real dictator runs the show!

A lot of folks don't like Bernie. Strong leaders tend to polarize opinion (love/hate) but no one can deny that F1 is at the top of the heap mostly through his vision/effort.

"The Board" killed CART imho. Too many egos, too many competing agendas and "CEOs" who were too much of a compromise - they were there because they were palatable to the other members, not because they were the best for the job.

I will qualify that by saying that Rahal, had he been able to do that job full time, would have been a good choice to lead CART long-term.

[rush1]

Originally posted by rustyfan
What American open-wheel indycar racing needs is a Bernie Ecclestone. A dictator.

CART should be an obvious example of the fact that a board with several different opinions that try to run things doesn't work.

With that said, however, I don't think Tony George would be the best person to be the 'outward face' of indycar racing. He should step back and concentrate on working sponsors and run IMS etc - just like the France's did in NASCAR, when Bill stepped back and appointed Mike Helton the 'front man'.

Sure, things have turned to **** since Brian France took over his dad's role, but that's a different matter. Brian might have been the one bringing together both the 2.4 billion TV deal and the massive NEXTEL title sponsorship, but he suck at making race related decisions and he should have kept his hands off that.

Still, despite Brian's ideas like the championship playoff system or killing off the Southern 500 (DAMN YOU BRIAN!), NASCAR has everything going for it, and it sure hasn't come to that point because they had a board of people pulling in different directions.

I think, and this is just my highly personal guesswork, that the indycar split wouldn't have happened if the CART head honchos back in 1994 had realized the importance of Indianapolis and had been willing to compromise. Had they used a sense of tact they obviously lacked, they could most likely have worked Tony George into a deal he was satisfied with.

Alas, it was not to be, and here we are today.

I agree Rustyfan. Running a racing series should not be a democracy with various car owners getting a vote in everything. One person needs to be at the top running the show. And I agree with your assessment of Tony George. I doubt Geroge would want to be the public face as speaking in public for him seems quite painful. If there ever is unification the dictator can't be one of the car owners. Conflict of interest all over again.

But Tony George will want to own and control the product from the background. It will need to be called the Indy Racing League. That is where the serious negotiations with the three amigos begins.

[Purist]

Some of the recent developments in F1 have been less than desirable. I'm tired of this stupid tobacco advertising thing, which is sending Bernie and his series more and more to Asia, and to Tilke-rings that are less than inspiring. And still, that Ferrari is unstoppable as ever. I can't honestly say that MS is any better than Alesi. But I'm getting way out here in the boonies aren't I.

Well, the point that I would make, and that has to be made to those involved, is that if you come up with the unified rules, which is what is said to be the easy part, the people in the series will have to get along if they want to have a series, or a job for that matter. Open wheel I don't think would be able to handle another break up, without major and permanent damage being done, both to those in the series, and to the public view of this form of motorsport in this country.

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by Purist
I can't honestly say that MS is any better than Alesi.

Hilarious!!!

[Snrub]

Originally posted by macdaddy
One "innocent" thread gets closed, and somebody says "censorship"? I laugh. Don't worry Marcus - it's me who's been stepping on the toes lately. What people forget is that they cannot read the posts that "disappear" and their computer monitors don't always show "the big picture".

I don't hold anything against the mods in either of American open wheel forums, I think they're doing their best with what they have to work with. I tend to think the problem lies further up.

[macdaddy]

Please, there's a thread in the Feedback forum for such matters.

[Purist]

KB, I was serious. The commentators have said Jean Alesi has proven very skillful in bad weather conditions, and as a rookie he gave Senna trouble at Phoenix one year. MS is not a bad driver. No F1 pilot is, but IMHO, the car is by in large what has allowed him to be so dominant as of late. A truly great driver can make even an inferior machine work well. Case in point, the 1957 world championship. Juan Manuel Fangio won his fifth title in a Maserati that was new in 1954. To emphasize his ability, he won the German Grand Prix at the Nordschleife after having to come back from a 45-50 second deficit after a mid race pit stop. His opponents were driving the new for 1957 Lancia-Ferraris.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by Purist
KB, I was serious. The commentators have said Jean Alesi has proven very skillful in bad weather conditions, and as a rookie he gave Senna trouble at Phoenix one year. MS is not a bad driver. No F1 pilot is, but IMHO, the car is by in large what has allowed him to be so dominant as of late. A truly great driver can make even an inferior machine work well. Case in point, the 1957 world championship. Juan Manuel Fangio won his fifth title in a Maserati that was new in 1954. To emphasize his ability, he won the German Grand Prix at the Nordschleife after having to come back from a 45-50 second deficit after a mid race pit stop. His opponents were driving the new for 1957 Lancia-Ferraris.

Piquet came to the IRL, I wonder if some other F-1 Jocks will give it a try?

[Kicking-back]

Nelson Piquet has never raced in the IRL.

[Jordi]

Exactly, the IRL was only in TG's thoughts when Nelson did Indy painfully in 1992 and successfully in 1993...

[pilgrim]

Other recent articles about the IRL/CART split:

http://money.cnn.com/2004/05/28/comm...biz/sportsbiz/

in the above article, Chris Isidore attributes the rise in NASCAR with the downfall of open wheel due to the split. Kind of depressing but really an indicator of how the split has harmed the sport.

Another article along these lines was a humorous piece at racingpress which discussed the OWRS takeover and "celebration"...of the rescue of CC.

http://www.racingpress.com/publish/owrs012904.shtml

in this article,

http://www.deepthrottle.com/Donath/backtalk.shtml

Ed Donath rips Penske for insincerity in offering to try to heal the split...He quotes the full Penske NYTimes article - for those of you who haven't read it.

[jklein6419]

the irl is already cart of old it doesnt take a genuis to see that. the only difference is the fanbase is an embarrasment compared to the cart of old. wheres my proof you ask, just look at the stands at texas this weekend for that. or even indy this year, even irl cheerleader curt cavin pointed out the low attendence

[pilgrim]

Originally posted by jklein6419
the irl is already cart of old it doesnt take a genuis to see that. the only difference is the fanbase is an embarrasment compared to the cart of old. wheres my proof you ask, just look at the stands at texas...

Oh puhleeeeeeze. No franchiseeing, no CART. Sure the fans have been split...What I want to know is where is the proof that IRL is already CART?! Not yet you ain't.....

No point in looking in the stands. The cars are on the track and it is shaping up as another fine one.

[Purist]

Might I mention that ALMS network broadcasts last year were getting better ratings than IRL on ABC during the same period. TV and live numbers have dropped lately. Indianapolis isn't even a sellout anymore. If the IrL isn't the old CART, it is in some ways going in that direction. That much is obvious. The manufacturers, foreign drivers, road courses, the lease agreements, etc.

[rush1]

Originally posted by Bob Riebe
Piquet came to the IRL, I wonder if some other F-1 Jocks will give it a try?

Just to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, where he kept slamming the car against the wall. Nice limp Nelson. Even big time F1 jocks are rookies at Indy.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by rush1
Just to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, where he kept slamming the car against the wall. Nice limp Nelson. Even big time F1 jocks are rookies at Indy.

I look at it this way, Tony George is IRL, Indy is IRL, Indy never ran CART rules, CART cars were allowed in,so if you ran Indy you were running either USAC or IRL, the latter is more recent.
Bob