World Series times?

[Rob29]

Small? In what way? Its around 2.5 miles long,and more atractive than most of the F1 circuits.

[formule3000]

Originally Posted by Russfeld

I thought it was incredible. Any idea what the budgets are like? If its comparable to F3 Euroseries I know where id rather be.

They said on Tv yesterday that it was about 500 000 € for a year for WSR.

[Russfeld]

I see it as a slightly staggered ladder now

BMW>>F3>>Gp2
Formula Renault>>Renault World Series>>

I think mixing from those two paths would be expensive and redundant

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by Rob29

Small? In what way? Its around 2.5 miles long,and more atractive than most of the F1 circuits.

I was reffering to the track width and run off areas, the circuit is defintly old school in terms of safety and design. Why else do u think this is the only major seires that visits the Zolder track?

[Mr Jinxx]

F3000 did so last year, and it didn't seem particularly troublesome, except for the dirty run-off areas, which make the track filthy

[Rob29]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

I was reffering to the track width and run off areas, the circuit is defintly old school in terms of safety and design. Why else do u think this is the only major seires that visits the Zolder track?

And have you noticed that almost every 'major' series (bar F1) attracts almost no spectators? This one looked good-crowd fairly close to the action and nice treesto shelter under. Yesterday I also watched WTCC & GTCC from the boring Magny Cours- banks of distant empty bleachers.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by Rob29

And have you noticed that almost every 'major' series (bar F1) attracts almost no spectators? This one looked good-crowd fairly close to the action and nice treesto shelter under. Yesterday I also watched WTCC & GTCC from the boring Magny Cours- banks of distant empty bleachers.

Yeah sure, I mean the DTM gets only what? 70,000 to each race on average and 125,000 for the Noirising round, and FIA GT and WTCC at Magny Cours only got around 60,000 too. Oh and then theres Moto GP - they only get what 100,000 at Donnington and WSBK too they only get around 90,000 at Brands Hatch. So no, I havent noticed, and personally I think ur wrong.

FYI there has been no official attendance figures for Magny Cours WTCC and FIA GT this year as of yet, but last year they had 60,000 - hardly small. See this link http://www.fiatouringcars.com/2k4/de...d=2&pagsize=8# - now click on on site attendance from Barcelona to Estoril. As u can see the series attracts very healthy crowd sizes, especially for big races like the Spa 24hrs. Oh and thats excluding children under 15 years of age, so the real figure is probably signifcantly higher, good crowd attendances all year round I think u will agree, barring Estoril..

[Rob29]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Yeah sure, I mean the DTM gets only what? 70,000 to each race on average and 125,000 for the Noirising round, and FIA GT and WTCC at Magny Cours only got around 60,000 too. Oh and then theres Moto GP - they only get what 100,000 at Donnington and WSBK too they only get around 90,000 at Brands Hatch. So no, I havent noticed, and personally I think ur wrong.

FYI there has been no official attendance figures for Magny Cours WTCC and FIA GT this year as of yet, but last year they had 60,000 - hardly small. See this link http://www.fiatouringcars.com/2k4/de...d=2&pagsize=8# - now click on on site attendance from Barcelona to Estoril. As u can see the series attracts very healthy crowd sizes, especially for big races like the Spa 24hrs. Oh and thats excluding children under 15 years of age, so the real figure is probably signifcantly higher, good crowd attendances all year round I think u will agree, barring Estoril..

Do you know how many seats there are at Magny Cours? As 99% of them seemed to be empty.DTM I agree gets good crowds,especially Norisring,another good spectator circuit.As does NASCAR of course. I was thinking of single seaters F3/F3000,etc, look lost among the empty stands. Nice narrow street circuits are what is needed-roll on Bilbao!

[Russfeld]

street circuits with crossovers ROCK

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by Rob29

Do you know how many seats there are at Magny Cours? As 99% of them seemed to be empty.DTM I agree gets good crowds,especially Norisring,another good spectator circuit.As does NASCAR of course. I was thinking of single seaters F3/F3000,etc, look lost among the empty stands. Nice narrow street circuits are what is needed-roll on Bilbao!

No I dont know how many seats there are at Magny Cours, but if u look at the link I supplied above, the statistcs for last years event at Magny Cours were 60,000 spectators, not bad at all I think u will agree. And given now the ETCC has changed to the WTCC and that the FIA GT championship has become even more professional I see no reason why the crowd figures would be smaller than last year, if not bigger. Sure theres no Formula Renault V6 anymore, but with respect to the series it wasnt a co headlinging event. Again, there are lots of series outside of F1 that get huge crowds, some even bigger than F1 such as NASCAR and Moto GP and DTM at certain venues.

What would be perfect for both the Renault world series and the FIA WTCC and FIA GT would be for the Renault world series to join the LG SRW package in place of the Formula Renault V6 Eurocup. Just a thought, but it would be benefical to everyone, lets hope it happens one day.

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Why else do u think this is the only major seires that visits the Zolder track?

Does this make a bell ring: what happened at Brands when our beloved Nicola was running the show?
Same and only problem at Zolder! Put a motorsport minded man / woman in charge and it could become good once again.
But if only bikes (the ones without engine) are your intrest,why bother to get some decent car or even motorbike racing at your track? This means work, you know.

[Rob29]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

No I dont know how many seats there are at Magny Cours, but if u look at the link I supplied above, the statistcs for last years event at Magny Cours were 60,000 spectators, not bad at all I think u will agree. And given now the ETCC has changed to the WTCC and that the FIA GT championship has become even more professional I see no reason why the crowd figures would be smaller than last year, if not bigger. Sure theres no Formula Renault V6 anymore, but with respect to the series it wasnt a co headlinging event. Again, there are lots of series outside of F1 that get huge crowds, some even bigger than F1 such as NASCAR and Moto GP and DTM at certain venues.

What would be perfect for both the Renault world series and the FIA WTCC and FIA GT would be for the Renault world series to join the LG SRW package in place of the Formula Renault V6 Eurocup. Just a thought, but it would be benefical to everyone, lets hope it happens one day.

Err; the SRW package no longer exists.Renault pulled out and have set up their own package. They seem to know what they are doing.Lots of promotion,free tickets,fans allowed to meet the drivers,family entertainment,result huge crowd-maybe biggest for a single seater non F1 headline in Europe in 30 years? I would take any FIA 'official' figures with the proverbial pinch of salt. Maybe there was a better crowd at Magny Cours last year due to the Renault promotion?

[SALEEN S7R]

Maybe ur wrong too, Eurosport promote the FIA WTCC and FIA GT championship now very heavily indeed. Renault have never really put much into the way of promotion of the LG SRW. SRO now runs and effectivly controls the FIA GT and FIA WTCC championships, and the figures released by the FIA are defintly accurate, but hey u think what u think Rob. Personally I beleive the FIA's figures. There was no problem with crowd sizes at Magny Cours, if anything they are getting bigger as the WTCC and FIA GT series grow.

As for the Renault world series attracting the biggest crowds outside of F1........sorry but id have to disagree there too. The F3 Euroseries undoubtdly attracts bigger crowds, it is part of the DTM package after all and that alone brings in huge benefits. Then of course u have Formula GP2, sure it will always live in F1's shadow but that series at the moment is getting lots of tv exposure and lots of advertising.

[Jordi]

Originally Posted by Zandbak

Before you say something like that, check te facts!! How many tracks on the World Series schedule have a service road?

If the organisation of the World Series continues the way as it has done on Zolder............well, order some body-bags

Well, surely only Monaco and Bilbao don't have - as they are street courses.
I know Monza, Estoril and Magny Cours have service roads - I'm not certain about Oschersleben, Donington, or Zandvoort. But Zolder looks outgrown by modern racing, sorry.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Jordi

But Zolder looks outgrown by modern racing, sorry.

I think Zolder is just fine, and personally I think it's nice to see that some tracks haven't "Tilkelized" themselves into an über-safe, soulless asphalt jungle.

The two major crashes during the weekend could have happened anywhere - the one in race two in particular. Obviously part of the reason the qualifying-crash happened was the blind crest, but at the same time if Fleming hadn't made that bad decision to park where he did and if the marshals had been more alert with the flags (and especially if the drivers had been more alert - to the red flags in particular), it would most likely have been avoided altogether.

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

FYI there has been no official attendance figures for Magny Cours WTCC and FIA GT this year as of yet, but last year they had 60,000 - hardly small. See this link http://www.fiatouringcars.com/2k4/de...d=2&pagsize=8# - now click on on site attendance from Barcelona to Estoril.

hmmm. The 2003 attendance was indeed 60.000. The 2004 attendance as provided in your link is only 22.000 for Magny cours (see 11 may 2004). The 22.000 number seems a lot more in the direction of the attendance i saw on the tv for the last race (and seemed to be high considering only empty seats).

[Rob29]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

As for the Renault world series attracting the biggest crowds outside of F1........sorry but id have to disagree there too. The F3 Euroseries undoubtdly attracts bigger crowds, it is part of the DTM package after all and that alone brings in huge benefits. Then of course u have Formula GP2, sure it will always live in F1's shadow but that series at the moment is getting lots of tv exposure and lots of advertising.

I meant when a single seater race other than F1 was the main event. Re;GP2 it will be interesting to see if it has any more fanbase than F3000. Look at the crowd in the stands for F1 qualifying,then see how many are left for the F3000/GP2 race one hour later.Even for those already at the circuit with a ticket it seems there are better local attractions?

[strider]

There were 85,000 at Zandvoort for the Marlboro Masters one year, and they expect 50/60,000 as standard. It's what happens when the promotion is good and you get in either for free or for a nominal amount. Having an F1 demonstration does no harm either.

Seems Renault are trying the same policy and I'm sure it will work for them.

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

I think Zolder is just fine, and personally I think it's nice to see that some tracks haven't "Tilkelized" themselves into an über-safe, soulless asphalt jungle.

Obviously part of the reason the qualifying-crash happened was the blind crest, but at the same time if Fleming hadn't made that bad decision to park where he did and if the marshals had been more alert with the flags (and especially if the drivers had been more alert - to the red flags in particular), it would most likely have been avoided altogether.

Rustyfan, you hit the nail on the head with the Tilkelized.

But I must stress that the marshals were alert with the flags, most of the drivers didn't bother to look. The very second Fleming stopped the yellow was out and a sign saying "keep right". And double yellows aren't allowed if the track isn't blocked. (stupid FIA rule, I know)
But we can go on and on.
If Renault's own Racecontrol had redflagged the practice the moment I asked, it might not have happened.
If Alx hadn't moved to the left it might not have happened.
If they were allowed to use a stationary yellow on the previous post (stupid FIA rule), it might not have happened.
But it did.

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by foxy mole

There were 85,000 at Zandvoort for the Marlboro Masters one year, and they expect 50/60,000 as standard. It's what happens when the promotion is good and you get in either for free or for a nominal amount. Having an F1 demonstration does no harm either.

Seems Renault are trying the same policy and I'm sure it will work for them.

Is entrance for the masters free? I thought at the time of 85.000 people entrance was free, but that they started charging entrance fee and that attendance dropped to 50.000 due to this (still a great number for a f3-race).

As for Rob's comment (people leaving after f1-qualifying): I've been to +-5 gp's and always found it strange that so many people left after qualifying. My best guess would be that those people are no autosport-fans, but simply attracted by the f1-hype. To bad for them since they missed some good racing (at least at the gp's i've been).

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by Jordi

But Zolder looks outgrown by modern racing, sorry.

Maybe modern racing has outgrown the tracks. Or should we ban races at real drivers tracks because there is no service road?
There are places at Spa where there is no serviceroad or run off (Eau Rouge left hand side), same with Zandvoort, Oschersleben and even many F1 tracks. What if something happens on that part of the track?

Maybe it is time that those modern primadonna-I'm-the-next-worldchampion racers learn to respect each other, the tracks and those who are working on the other side of the armco.

Us (well me) "oldtimer" racers never had all the safety gadgets and still we went for it.
I'd love to see those modern racers go through the very old Eau Rouge. No run off on either side, only a solid wall.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

I think Zolder is just fine, and personally I think it's nice to see that some tracks haven't "Tilkelized" themselves into an über-safe, soulless asphalt jungle.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Eddy V

But I must stress that the marshals were alert with the flags, most of the drivers didn't bother to look. The very second Fleming stopped the yellow was out and a sign saying "keep right". And double yellows aren't allowed if the track isn't blocked. (stupid FIA rule, I know)

But shouldn't a car standing in - or near - the racing line behind a blind crest count as "blocked track"?

Still, the biggest problem was obviously the lack of respect from the other drivers regarding the red flag (as if the yellow-flag confusion wasn't bad enough), and while Proetto was the only other driver to hit Fleming's car there were at least two others who came very close to doing the exact same thing.

Originally Posted by Eddy V

Maybe modern racing has outgrown the tracks. Or should we ban races at real drivers tracks because there is no service road?
There are places at Spa where there is no serviceroad or run off (Eau Rouge left hand side), same with Zandvoort, Oschersleben and even many F1 tracks. What if something happens on that part of the track?

Maybe it is time that those modern primadonna-I'm-the-next-worldchampion racers learn to respect each other, the tracks and those who are working on the other side of the armco.

Us (well me) "oldtimer" racers never had all the safety gadgets and still we went for it.
I'd love to see those modern racers go through the very old Eau Rouge. No run off on either side, only a solid wall.

Well said, and I couldn't agree more (though I'm not really an "oldtimer" myself ).

[JJ Jet Plane]

It's all very well to go on about drivers' lack of respect, but here's one of the main reasons:

Over the past 10 or 15 years drivers have got used to red flags or safety cars EVEN FOR A CAR COMPLETELY OFF TRACK IN THE GRAVEL. Therefore, if a driver sees yellow flags he must assume that the danger is not that great – otherwise there would be a stoppage or a safety car. I can only assume that with the accident under red flags at Zolder the driver hadn't even seen the red flags.

The only solution is to stop this ridiculous over-reliance on safety cars and red flags when they're not needed, then drivers would know to take more care when they see yellows.

[Russfeld]

If the Stewards of the various meetings had bigger balls, the problems would be fixed quicker.