It seems to me that Heidfeld is now consistently outpacing Webber - Page 3

flor · 19 Jun 2005, 01:07 (Ref:1332599)

Nick is running heavy, at least thats what he said, plus he was on track a bit ealier. I dont know if Webber is heavy too.

D.R.T. · 19 Jun 2005, 01:23 (Ref:1332604)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nismo

if the aussies cant see how heidfeld is destroying mark at every race this year they must be blind!

I noticed that at Canada Webber started behind Heidfeld, however after the first pit stops Webber was in front.

Destroying I cant think so. Nick has proved to be more consistent however by no means could say anyone is destroying the other.

Scott75 · 19 Jun 2005, 02:28 (Ref:1332613)

I think you'll find that they are both heavy on fuel. Remember at the Nurburgring when Nick got pole and Mark was 3rd. Mark was 2 stopping and Nick was on a 3 stop race and there was only 3 tenths seperating them. So Mark is a lot quicker but needs to not make as many mistakes in the race. I feel that this will happen eventually, hopefully at Indy.

DavidStHubbins · 19 Jun 2005, 06:57 (Ref:1332670)

Webber is the better qualifier but he is no racer I'm afraid. He makes so many mistakes! Maybe he is pushing too hard but his overtaking skills are really bad.

I don't rate Nick as anything more than very competent so for Webber to be worse than Nick in the races is not good for him. And other team bosses will see this too!

Frank always heralds his new drivers by comparing them to other drivers he's had. So he called Ralf "another Mansell", Montoya was also "another Mansell", Button was "a Prost" and Webber "an Alan Jones"! I'm sorry but the Webber I see is the one I watched in F3000. Sporadically very fast but leaven with silly mistakes trying to make up places when he is not able to pull them off. Makes the races fun I guess when compared to the metronomic Heidfeld.

As to the title of this thread Nick is better than Webber in the races most of the time - even when Webber is actually faster over one lap because Webber is pushing too hard and cannot sustain it over race distance. He makes mistakes and falls behind Nick. If he slowed down he would be more consistent like Nick. That's the only way Webber will get better - by slowing down!

Andrew2001 · 19 Jun 2005, 07:20 (Ref:1332679)

Absolutely, Heidfeld is a better driver than Webber, end of story. I thought WEbber may find it challenging having a 'good' team mate, and his weakness has been shown for all to see.

Don K · 19 Jun 2005, 08:22 (Ref:1332702)

As far as I can see, Heidfeld is doing better during the races at this moment.

He is the first strong opponent that Webber encounters.
So Webber will surely learn a lot from this season. (And Heidfeld will also learn a lot)

It is still way too early to say which of the two drivers will end up being the better driver at the end of their carreers.

It is still way too early to say whether one of these drivers (or both of them) will ever reach the real top.
At this moment they are just great talents. And aging.

And I think it is still too early to say which of the two drivers will be better this season.
Very close at this moment.

BootsOntheSide · 19 Jun 2005, 09:22 (Ref:1332722)

Nick lost out through running early, and if he is making one less pitstop the gap is more than explained. It does nothing to change my feeling that Nick is the superior driver on current form. Mark has had much more luck over the season, which may well level out as the year goes on.

The Zuschauer · 19 Jun 2005, 11:03 (Ref:1332777)

Here's a question:

What are Mark's racing qualifications (in terms of championship wins and race wins)? Compare them with Heidfelds. If I'm right, he's never won a championship in his life (well, maybe in go-karts, but everyone is a champion in go-karts), and only a handful of races.

4th in British F3, runner up in F3000. Didn't even win Australian Formula Ford!

My summary of Mark: "Mark was really quick today, but it just wasn't his day because ......."

I've been asking the question for quite some time - why is this guy on the grid?

DavidStHubbins · 19 Jun 2005, 11:18 (Ref:1332781)

He's worthy of F1 but he needs to settle down and not drive 11/10ths during the race. He can't pull it off. He is consistently quicker than Nick in qualifying so he has genuine pace. He just needs to copy Nick's mature, consistency and style in the race. Maybe it is set-up issues? But he has as much experience as Nick in F1 - Webber has been testing F1 cars since he was in his early twenties so who knows... Perhaps he sets the car up on a knife-edge to be mega fast but it's easy to make a mistake. At the moment though he is really under-performing...

Rick · 19 Jun 2005, 11:42 (Ref:1332796)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Zuschauer

Here's a question:

I've been asking the question for quite some time - why is this guy on the grid?

interesting! - do you remember saying this -

"Consider this. Webber is calm, calculating, fast, reliable, extremely fit, humble, and focuses only on the job of driving the car. This is what Frank Williams loves in a driver - someone who knows their place, does the job, and gets on with it. Webber is the perfect match for Williams."

just how long have you been asking the question?!! ; )

JeremySmith · 19 Jun 2005, 12:37 (Ref:1332821)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don K

As far as I can see, Heidfeld is doing better during the races at this moment.

It is still way too early to say whether one of these drivers (or both of them) will ever reach the real top.
At this moment they are just great talents. And aging.

And I think it is still too early to say which of the two drivers will be better this season.
Very close at this moment.

You know I thought that Driving an F1 car was been at the real top

Kicking-back · 19 Jun 2005, 12:55 (Ref:1332827)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

You know I thought that Driving an F1 car was being at the real top

No, consistently winning in one is.

Nismo · 19 Jun 2005, 16:21 (Ref:1332982)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrex

Hardly destroying him, but certainly getting the better of him last few races.

I cant recall the last 'great' so consistantly outqualified by his team mate either.

All that aside, Mark is under-performing, and this is highlighted further by Nick being stellar. I have been really impressed with Nick so far.

Mould these 2 together and you have a great driver

At the start of the season I put my money on Webber finishing higher on points, and I'm not changing that yet. As someone mentioned, Mark can get more consistant (does'nt mean he will of course), Nick wont get faster.

Frank and Patrick have to be happy though. These 2 are getting some great results in the probably the 5th best car, and for a fraction of what they were paying the previous 2.

Wrex, Your an Honest man! Well done chap, shame more your country men dont think like you!

Nismo · 19 Jun 2005, 16:24 (Ref:1332984)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Zuschauer

Here's a question:

What are Mark's racing qualifications (in terms of championship wins and race wins)? Compare them with Heidfelds. If I'm right, he's never won a championship in his life (well, maybe in go-karts, but everyone is a champion in go-karts), and only a handful of races.

4th in British F3, runner up in F3000. Didn't even win Australian Formula Ford!

My summary of Mark: "Mark was really quick today, but it just wasn't his day because ......."

I've been asking the question for quite some time - why is this guy on the grid?

the only big event he has won was the brand formula ford race.. that turned him into a super star

ASCII Man · 19 Jun 2005, 17:29 (Ref:1333029)

Whow, a sole win of importance!

An absolute certain future World Champion!

Let me guess, the Marlboro Masters at Zandvoort, eh?

BootsOntheSide · 19 Jun 2005, 20:49 (Ref:1333494)

Nick goes 3rd in qualifying next weekend, assuming that Ralf races, whcih is rotten luck considering that he went for an aggressive strategy.

mac · 20 Jun 2005, 00:16 (Ref:1333845)

The sheer fact he is in F1 is a mark of Webber's tenacity.

He went to Europe with little financial backing - his only real personal sponsor was Yellow Pages (hardly a multinational corporation).

He ran out of money halfway through his season in Brit F3. He was left with nowhere to go and nothing to do after Mercedes canned their sportscar program. The fact he kept bouncing back is testament to the man.

And those of you proclaiming Mark has been "destroyed" by Nick, or even comfortably beaten by him are blinded by something ..... but I can't figure out what!

Nick is 3 points ahead of him ........... hardly a mauling! And that includes 2 points gifted to Nick at Monaco.

The fact is they are very closely matched in the races and frequently find themselves occupying the same piece of racetrack - indicating to me that they are quite close.

Mark is clearly the better qualifier, but has at times slid back this season - largely due to him putting the car further up the grid than it deserves to be.

I think they have both done a good job this year and there is no way any driver can claim to have comprehensively beaten the other.

SO FAR, I would give the nod to Heidfeld JUST. Simply because he has kept his nose clean and not made as many mistakes as Mark.

But Mark has largely been quicker than Nick (and don't give me the fastest lap argument because Mark has been frequently stuck behind slower cars at a lot of races), so he cannot be too far behind.

Like Nick, Mark has put in some stellar performances this season ..... but for some reason certain people like to sweep them under the carpet.

He would have finished on the podium in Malaysia if not for Fisi taking him out, he was quicker than Nick and should have finished second at Monaco, but for a strategy issue.

There are some ridiculous myths being perpetuated in this thread - they have both performed well, but Nick has the slightest edge at the moment due to Webber's few mistakes.

DavidStHubbins · 20 Jun 2005, 02:50 (Ref:1333967)

Webber had International Rugby Union start David Campese partly financing him too. Campese and Webber's dad are old rugby pals.

GolddustMini · 20 Jun 2005, 02:54 (Ref:1333973)

it seemed to me that webber totally outpaced heidfeld in the "who can get into the pit garage sit down and have a cup 'o' cha first" grandprix race

williamsf1 · 20 Jun 2005, 03:07 (Ref:1333986)

yeah Campo came up with 150k of aussie pesos!(about 65k pounds) hardly an F1 or even an F3 budget!! but it did help... and mark will be forever greatful to David...

but that did not "buy" him into F1 or anything close.... what did was him taking a loan against his drives in F3000 and F1 and then Flav paying for it all... Flav knowing that mark is something special indeed!

mark then bought out his contract with Flav, and is on his way.... how many of you would have worked as hard as him???? hmmmm

DavidStHubbins · 20 Jun 2005, 03:21 (Ref:1333996)

Not me! What's with the Ironman thing too? He's probably already 10 times fitter than most of the others. Maybe he should get into Jazz or something and chill out. Then we'd see some more relaxed drives... He always seems so on edge and serious in interviews during race weekend, F1 is serious yes, but he should relax a bit I reckon.

mac · 20 Jun 2005, 04:20 (Ref:1334030)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidStHubbins

Not me! What's with the Ironman thing too? He's probably already 10 times fitter than most of the others. Maybe he should get into Jazz or something and chill out. Then we'd see some more relaxed drives... He always seems so on edge and serious in interviews during race weekend ......

As opposed to the rest of the court jesters in F1?

johnh875 · 20 Jun 2005, 05:11 (Ref:1334045)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen

Ultimately I think it will be feasible for Webber to settle down and find the missing consistency, whereas I think it unlikely that Heidfled will be able to find speed that he hasn't already found. In other words, it is easier to tidy up the naturally fast act than it is to reinvent one's driving and become faster - it is relatively easier to see where Mark can improve than it is to define where Nick is going to find the extra speed.

Or as I have read it more succinctly expressed “it is easier to tidy up speed, than to speed up tidiness”.

The rest of the debate I’m not even going to enter into, I think the vitriol that Webber attracts is ridiculous!

Rick · 21 Jun 2005, 02:18 (Ref:1335386)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Nick goes 3rd in qualifying next weekend, assuming that Ralf races, whcih is rotten luck considering that he went for an aggressive strategy.

.

DavidStHubbins · 21 Jun 2005, 10:16 (Ref:1335633)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac

As opposed to the rest of the court jesters in F1?

If that is the opposite of being on edge... They can be boring and relaxed you know, re: Kimi.

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