Webber V Rosberg

[alf]

tedious rubbish is your oppinion, I have mine????????
and don't see a single thing wrong with voicing an oppinion, its the whole idea of a forum,... to create debate, what are we supposed to do? sit here and write he's a jolly good fellow??? I know my Mom used to say if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all, but this is a little bit like thought police !

[Adam43]

er, that is the point of my post - please re-read the first sentence.
It says we are allowed to discuss it! However it says that we should just discuss it. Not pointlessly bash and not get offended when people criticise. The tedious rubbish I refer to is the non motorsport posts about how and why people are posting. It is posts like that which are the ones that stop debate.

and let us get back to the discussion...

[KE30MAN]

Both nice guys and both can be super quick. I think Mark will be quicker but Nico will show flshes of brilliance. I think Mark will actually do very well in the first half of the season.

[Born Racer]

Nico showed himself to be a strong racer in the pack in GP2 last year.

[SetikX]

Credit where credits due, I HAVE seen a few races where Mark has been UNREAL, but then again, DC has shown similar and he has never really been a WDC challenger. Can a Webber fan explain the difference between these two men?

Oh other then the fact DC is a very very gifted driver who I respect.

[maximus]

Originally Posted by alf

Agreed!!
MW is a good driver no question, but elite few... I don't think so.
and as for Rubbens V Jensen, Jensen will destroy him like he did JV

(OT) I don't think Jenson will "destroy" Rubens. I feel he can beat him, but it will be close.

On topic, it is crunch time for Webber, as much as his fans don't want to admit. He had a disappointing season last season and needs to improve on this. He needs to comprehensively beat Rosberg, if he doesn't then people will ask really serious questions about him, as they would about any driver in his position.

I really don't see why people are having a problem with these kind of comments, its the truth!

[alf]

Ok perhaps destroy is too strong a word, Rubbens is no mug, ( except for when he signed for Ferrari and stated " I wont be a number 2 driver!!! where have I heard that recently???!!)
but I do think that JB will raise his game and whilst I have fond regard for RB He has , I feel 1 foot in the last chance saloon. Don't get me wrong I would love to see them slog it out but my gut instinct is that JB still has the hunger of the younger man, and RB has kids loads of money race wins etc under his belt what has he got to prove except Champion? be honest does anyone think a Honda will win the WDC?

no nor me.

getiing back on topic.
I think W ebber is VERY Australian!!

Originally Posted by maximus

(OT) I don't think Jenson will "destroy" Rubens. I feel he can beat him, but it will be close.

On topic, it is crunch time for Webber, as much as his fans don't want to admit. He had a disappointing season last season and needs to improve on this. He needs to comprehensively beat Rosberg, if he doesn't then people will ask really serious questions about him, as they would about any driver in his position.

I really don't see why people are having a problem with these kind of comments, its the truth!

[alf]

Frank Certainly knows a lot about F1. indeed few know more, but does he know everything?
No
He has made several driver choice errors ( as well as several master strokes)
but who ever knows if the car is best or the driver is best or both are best pre season?? we should not assume that every decision is right, just because it is made by one who is a success in the sport. Look at Ken Tyrell. When Jackie Stewart was winning in his cars who ever would have thought that the team would make a slow retreat to the back of the grid and then in to obscurity?

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I have to say that these threads become somewhat tiresome...I do not believe for one moment that Mark Webber would be at Williams if he did not have the required talent to get the job done. As far as who is going to out perform who..I don't really care to be honest. Let us just wait and see what transpires, Sir Frank Williams knows what he is doing don't you think?

[Nado]

Originally Posted by SetikX

Credit where credits due, I HAVE seen a few races where Mark has been UNREAL, but then again, DC has shown similar and he has never really been a WDC challenger. Can a Webber fan explain the difference between these two men?

Oh other then the fact DC is a very very gifted driver who I respect.

That he was stupid enough to leave Williams (his own words) to play second fiddle to Mika Hakkinen?

[kmsport]

Here is an extract from ITV quoting Patrick Head at the 2006 chassis launch..

But, speaking at the launch of the FW28 at the team’s factory in Grove, Head set his sights high for the year ahead and said he “would be disappointed if we’re not right there”.

He said: “Obviously some of the manufacturer-resourced teams will have more resource than us and a number of those teams have got drivers with more experience and race wins under their belt than the combination of Mark and Nico.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by alf

Frank Certainly knows a lot about F1. indeed few know more, but does he know everything?
No
He has made several driver choice errors ( as well as several master strokes)
but who ever knows if the car is best or the driver is best or both are best pre season?? we should not assume that every decision is right, just because it is made by one who is a success in the sport. Look at Ken Tyrell. When Jackie Stewart was winning in his cars who ever would have thought that the team would make a slow retreat to the back of the grid and then in to obscurity?

Do you not also think that the difference between the front, the middle, and the back of the grid can be measured in extremely small, and sometimes miniscule increments? All of these drivers must be the *very best* that are available I would assume otherwise *why* would they be with their respective teams?

It is quite possible that I am being too simplistic in my thought process. I am sure I will be corrected if you or others feel that I am way off base. Really when it comes down to it I know sod all about F1 really just that I love it.

[Nado]

Originally Posted by kmsport

Here is an extract from ITV quoting Patrick Head at the 2006 chassis launch..

But, speaking at the launch of the FW28 at the team’s factory in Grove, Head set his sights high for the year ahead and said he “would be disappointed if we’re not right there”.

He said: “Obviously some of the manufacturer-resourced teams will have more resource than us and a number of those teams have got drivers with more experience and race wins under their belt than the combination of Mark and Nico.

He also added, "But I am not convinced that those drivers will be quicker than Mark."

[WebberForWDC]

Nico has access to Mark's data, if Nico can brake as late as Mark, which is pretty much as late as possible, then Mark is going to have a hard time trying to beat Nico!

That Bridgestone are supposedly worse at braking than Michelin won't help. So how is Mark supposed to beat Nico by lots?

[Nado]

Originally Posted by WebberForWDC

Nico has access to Mark's data, if Nico can brake as late as Mark, which is pretty much as late as possible, then Mark is going to have a hard time trying to beat Nico!

That Bridgestone are supposedly worse at braking than Michelin won't help. So how is Mark supposed to beat Nico by lots?

Mark's like Craig Lowndes, and don't follow the popular principle of slow in, fast out. I'm not sure if it's that easy to become a fast in, slow out kinda of driver.

The seamless gears might give Mark an upper hand, though I'm totally talking out of my behind at the moment.

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by bosch!

No, he got in because Stoddart was an Aussie and the press mounted a campaign to get him the drive. I was living in Australia while this was going on.

He didnt have the experience to sort out the Jag, DC sorted out the Red Bull which was basically the same car. Webber has lived on the good will of fans who would be slating any other driver who put in the similar performances.

You dont get people saying "X amount (75) of starts and no wins, what a disapointment" that has been following JB (100) for years now do you? I have always wondered why that is....

Not saying anyone is wrong, or right…but some of the info as I understand/recall means the above statements isn’t entirely warranted.

He got the opportunity at Minardi because there was a desire for Stoddy to put an Aussie in the seat...for sure that was a factor. But thats not the reason he got the drive. He was a Benetton test driver, and whilst there was a desire for an Aussie in F1, its not like Australian business paid for his seat at Minardi. Fosters and Yellow Pages helped with money...but in F1 terms i wouldn’t consider it a significant amount.

Forget for a moment the Aussie relationship between Stoddy and Webber and consider that a works Mercedes Sportscar driver with testing experience with Benetton got a start at Minardi once his Benetton contract allowed. There is nothing unusual about that...and he got a stat without a big sponsors package.

Also the fact that Webber had won F3000 races (crashed out of a few as well I remember) . I think Wilson won that F3000 season, and the two were later paired in the same Minardi car in that F1 season. Webber seemed to fair better then Wilson from what I recall. No on top of all that the guy running Minardi, Stoddy, also looked after the Arrows F3000 team so had first hand knowledge of Webber.

So its all a matter of how black or white you want to paint the grey

As for the experience to sort out the Jag? You could be right, but others could argue that cars don’t get developed over night, and the early speed of the RBR and DC was a result of Webber and Jaguars hard work the previous year. The fact that Newey loves working with DC and that was a factor for going to RBR, I would say DC obviously knows how to develop a car, better then Webber can at the present time. He didt sort the car given to him, as it was quick out of the box, but DC did maintain the pace pretty well throughout the year.

After a rut around the Silverstone race the Williams did start to again find some points finishing speed. Was that a result of Webber developing the car? Or was it to do with other factors, including the binning of Pizzonia and Rosberg starting to test etc????

McLaren and Dennis aren’t silly and DC was in the picture for a long time. But to say Webber didn’t sort out the Jag is being a bit too critical in my eyes. Especially since the car didn’t race all that badly, and I would say the trend of performances was no worse then the seasons before with other drivers. There is probably an argument for saying there were improvements.

And your right, Webber is free of the whole F1 starts with no race wins. People do seem to remember his debut though with Minardi in Melbourne. And again whilst he is free of the scrutiny that JB is receiving, im not sure Minardi is the same as Williams. The Jaguar could be seen as comparable of the Benetton of that period, with the Benetton perhaps being the better team, definitely the more stable team internally. Then the seasons at Honda could be seen as the same opportunity as Williams last year. So its strange that Webber is free of the scrutiny on this front..but the inches difference between Jaguar and Benetton, Honda and Willams means JB has had the better drives.

I don’t think last years William was really that bad. It did go through a patch of 4 or 5 races in the mid-back of the pack, but qualifying so early did seem to hurt their ability to start where they wanted. There were plenty of races where NH and Webber were racing for top 4 finishes…its just that they didn’t seize all their opportunities.

LOL…long post and sorry for anyone bored with this argument, but I see it as a discussion as this kind of thing is always viewed differently by ppl fooling other drivers. Im mainly a DC and Fisi man, so feel im pretty neutral.

[alf]

Like I say in an earlier post, MW is a talented driver, no question, but to be regarded amongst the elite, I think that you have to be consistant, and he just makes so many mistakes, and trys to pass the buck, we have eyes Mark the replay does not lie.

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Do you not also think that the difference between the front, the middle, and the back of the grid can be measured in extremely small, and sometimes miniscule increments? All of these drivers must be the *very best* that are available I would assume otherwise *why* would they be with their respective teams?

It is quite possible that I am being too simplistic in my thought process. I am sure I will be corrected if you or others feel that I am way off base. Really when it comes down to it I know sod all about F1 really just that I love it.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by alf

Like I say in an earlier post, MW is a talented driver, no question, but to be regarded amongst the elite, I think that you have to be consistant, and he just makes so many mistakes, and trys to pass the buck, we have eyes Mark the replay does not lie.

I agree with your comments regarding consistency, but when he makes a mistake he owns up to it. As you say the replay does not lie, however maybe I can recommend a good optician.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by alf

Like I say in an earlier post, MW is a talented driver, no question, but to be regarded amongst the elite, I think that you have to be consistant, and he just makes so many mistakes, ............

I agree with that.

Originally Posted by dsg

I agree with your comments regarding consistency, but when he makes a mistake he owns up to it. .........

Generally I agree with that too, however let's not make him a god, he does sometimes (like any other driver) refer to the book of excuses.

[Ryan_Briscoe1]

Originally Posted by garcon

I know very little about Rosberg, except that his performances in lower series do seem to justify a chance in F1.

Unless Rosberg is the next Senna or Schumacher, one would expect Webber to dominate. There is definitely a degree of pressure on Webber to start delivering to the potential he showed at the start of his F1 career. However, he strikes me as a genuine team player, and I think Rosberg will benefit a great deal from having Webber as a team-mate and mentor.

sensible answer, roseberg will learn alot from webber but webber is a very quick driver and will beat roseberg. Hopefully williams can give webber a decent car to drive unlike last year.

[BootsOntheSide]

Usually, a driver who is established in a team will beat a rookie driver over the course of a season. I'm not sure Mark will be reggularly ahead by the end of the year, but I suspect Williams won't be competitive enough to score as many points by then. Webber does need a great season though - 2005 created more questions than answers in my mind. He put in a few great shows, most notably Spa and Suzuka, but his running problems all recurred - poor starts, lack of race pace relative to qualifying pace, bickering with team-mates, and a propensity to get caught up in accidents (not all his fault, but it never is his fault...)

[mac]

Williams appears to be doing everything they can to get Rosberg up to speed - he's done twice as much testing as Webber so far.

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

his running problems all recurred - poor starts

It was commonly accepted by most (including Williams) that the poor starts were down to a combination of poor launch/traction control, and poor bottom-end torque.

Nick had poor starts too - you just didn't see too many of them because he was further back in the grid.

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

lack of race pace relative to qualifying pace

Only because his qualifying pace was so outstanding. He often qualified well ahead of much faster cars and when the race started he was immediately under pressure from them.

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

bickering with team-mates

Huh? He made one little jibe about Nick, but apart from that the relationship seemed quite cordial. Certainly Nick has only spoken positively about him since his departure, and neither Head or Williams has said anything about a negative team atmosphere.

Pure speculation ......

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

propensity to get caught up in accidents (not all his fault, but it never is his fault...)

Mark often put his hand up when he was at fault. At Nurburgring he chastised himself despite Brundle's slightly opposing viewpoint. And I think a lot of the incidents were purely down to frustration at the car not being up to pace.

I think Webber learnt a lot last year, and I expect a different driver to the one we saw in the first three quarters of last season.

Having said that, I like the look of Rosberg. He appears a very logical and grounded operator - certainly the team seems to be in love with him.

So in summary, I am parked firmly on the fence - I just want them to have a strong car again.

[Rick]

nice try mac. Boots is slowly coming 'round! ; )

[OZ_HCR32]

Yeh, i didnt realise there wa tension when Webber was driving with Nick? I know Pizzonia and Webber didnt really get along...but the seed seemed to be that Pizzonia couldn thandle the scruntiy nad comments that Webber was quicker...so tension came from Pizzonia starting back room talk?!?!?!

Have other team mates had problems with Webber?

[dsg]

Lets get the story straight. In an interview last year with Paul Gover of the Sydney Daily Telegraph, among other things now forgotten Mark was asked about the crash with Fisi and other mishaps. Then Paul sledged him in a humorous way saying Nick didn't seem to be having as many problems.

Mark jokingly replied that (Nick) just sits there, which was why he wasn't having the same problems.

Some news agencies looking for a headline picked up the comment and ran with it as if he were serious. Mark and Nick got along fine. I have no idea about how he got on with other team mates.

[BootsOntheSide]

Mark was very impressive in Suzuka and Spa, but I'm not sure the comment applies to the last part of the season overall - he wasn't really any faster than Pizzonia at times, and we'll never know how he would have compared to Nick at those races. Also, perhaps you can name races in which Nick was passed by 2 or more cars on the first sector of lap 1?

I know the comment about Nick just sitting there wasn't meant as a criticism, but it was a poor attempt by Mark at justifying his having more incidents, as well as something which was proved false by Monaco, where Nick's overtaking move on Alonso was much braver and riskier than Mark's, especially as it was for 2 more points instead of 1.