Audi LMP1 Discussion

[J Jay]

Cheers for that Mike, much appreciated. Reading Samoan Attorney's comments about the petrol cars' hybrid systems potentially being turned down to last the distance (which I had not considered at all) and this is a good reminder of how hard the technology is being pushed.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Something to consider, the mechanical-loss blanket number I tend to use is 10%, though recently an engineer suggested 5% might be more accurate. I might be revising my number to 7.5% in the future. I'd have to say 13% is very much on the high side.

Well you could do it in reverse, with good hints. Last year(2013 season) Audi leaked their engine was north of 850Nm (627 lb.ft), you have some good "onboard" telemetry videos... was max 4600 RPM... then http://www.calculatoredge.com/new/horsepower.htm x 7.5% (something like: 527x1.075(7.5%)>= 591.25 hp)

In the 2014 season they changed the engine to 4 L and restricted the RPM to 4500RPM (small drop seen at onboard telemetry)... i think the idea was play with torque... perhaps that engine now is well north of 900Nm, lets say possibly 950Nm(700lb.ft)... then http://www.calculatoredge.com/new/horsepower.htm x 7.5% (something like: 599.77x1.075(7.5%)>= 644.75 hp)

I think is very close to the truth for what is possible in race conditions... it depends on engine mappings... for sure in qualifying is more, stretched very very close to the limits of fuel rates (with the F1 100kg/hour... of diesel fuel... i'm convinced that engine could be stretched to 5500 RPM if not more, meaning perhaps 750hp or more).

[yet, i'm convinced that with engine electric ancillary, the mechanical loss could less than 5%, which doesn't mean the top hp number is lower, but that the engine could rev higher for the same amount of fuel)

[hcl123]

2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDJis6VnEJw

2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYyMIDrdrP0

[mclarenf1papa]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Something to consider, the mechanical-loss blanket number I tend to use is 10%, though recently an engineer suggested 5% might be more accurate. I might be revising my number to 7.5% in the future. I'd have to say 13% is very much on the high side.

Engineers of LMP cars that I've spoken with have said 10-13% is accurate. I'll likely be working on a simulation project involving HPD -to an extent- if all goes to plan. I'll try to get some better word on it then.

And note: Brandon Fry (former engineer of Muscle Milk Pickett Racing, and currently working as an engineer in Nissan's LMP1 program) said that 2013 horsepower was anywhere from 625-650 in the privateer cars like Muscle Milk's HPD (I think that's slightly high). We can assume that the current LMP1s are more powerful than that.

[chernaudi]

Back then, it was pretty easy to guess that Audi and Toyota in terms of ICE power were easily making at least 600bhp, very likely at the rear wheels and not just on the engine dyno. And that's 600bhp in endurance trim, especially for Audi.

I have a hard time believing the near 650hp number that you've suggested for private LMP1 teams--after all, that's just a bit short of the 700bhp that privateers were making with engines nearly 2 liters larger in capacity.

But if that 650bhp power figure is realistic, and we can add about 50hp to the factory cars from there, is it any wonder that the ACO's attempts to slow the LMP1 cars at LM and elsewhere though the use of smaller engines largely failed?

Also, even taking 2 inches of the max tire/wheel width for LMP1 cars and making them 4 inches narrower was also to slow down the rate that the cars were getting faster. That didn't help a ton either in most circumstances. Especially when it's considered that Audi last year was making cornering speeds better than the 2013 R18 which should've had the edge on grip because of the wider tires.

Makes one wonder what the '13 R18 could've done with some of those high downforce bits being teamed with those wide tires.

[mclarenf1papa]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Back then, it was pretty easy to guess that Audi and Toyota in terms of ICE power were easily making at least 600bhp, very likely at the rear wheels and not just on the engine dyno. And that's 600bhp in endurance trim, especially for Audi.

I have a hard time believing the near 650hp number that you've suggested for private LMP1 teams--after all, that's just a bit short of the 700bhp that privateers were making with engines nearly 2 liters larger in capacity.

But if that 650bhp power figure is realistic, and we can add about 50hp to the factory cars from there, is it any wonder that the ACO's attempts to slow the LMP1 cars at LM and elsewhere though the use of smaller engines largely failed?

Also, even taking 2 inches of the max tire/wheel width for LMP1 cars and making them 4 inches narrower was also to slow down the rate that the cars were getting faster. That didn't help a ton either in most circumstances. Especially when it's considered that Audi last year was making cornering speeds better than the 2013 R18 which should've had the edge on grip because of the wider tires.

Makes one wonder what the '13 R18 could've done with some of those high downforce bits being teamed with those wide tires.

I should note that the 625-650 quote from Mr. Fry was based on the ALMS LMP1s of 2013, which had a restrictor break and therefore were around 25 HP more powerful than the privateer WEC cars.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Some tweety reactions to Nissan's PR exercise from Di Grassi:

Well done @NISMO . Welcome to @FIAWEC #lmp1 Very nice #SuperBowl49 ad

Nissan - Front engine, small rear tyres, good looking. Wait.. You haven't seen our 2015 Audi R18 #FIAWEC #dontcry

It's still better than nothing

[tomerswayler]

Didn't Toyota claim to reach an efficiency of 40% with their 2014 engine?

That would make in the 6MJ petrol class with a LHV of 42MJ/kg:

0,4 * 89,5kg/h * 42MJ/kg = ~418kW or 568hp

with 41% and 43MJ/kg:

0,41 * 89,5kg/h * 43MJ/kg = ~438kW or 596hp

[ederss7]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Back then, it was pretty easy to guess that Audi and Toyota in terms of ICE power were easily making at least 600bhp, very likely at the rear wheels and not just on the engine dyno. And that's 600bhp in endurance trim, especially for Audi.

I have a hard time believing the near 650hp number that you've suggested for private LMP1 teams--after all, that's just a bit short of the 700bhp that privateers were making with engines nearly 2 liters larger in capacity.

But if that 650bhp power figure is realistic, and we can add about 50hp to the factory cars from there, is it any wonder that the ACO's attempts to slow the LMP1 cars at LM and elsewhere though the use of smaller engines largely failed?

Also, even taking 2 inches of the max tire/wheel width for LMP1 cars and making them 4 inches narrower was also to slow down the rate that the cars were getting faster. That didn't help a ton either in most circumstances. Especially when it's considered that Audi last year was making cornering speeds better than the 2013 R18 which should've had the edge on grip because of the wider tires.

Makes one wonder what the '13 R18 could've done with some of those high downforce bits being teamed with those wide tires.

At least through the Porsche curves in 2013 they were faster, something like 0.2s. The fastest average speed was an amazing 270km/h.

[Articus]

Does the 2015 Audi R18 even exist? This has to be the best kept secret in racing....

[chernaudi]

No one's gotten their hands on photos of the 2015 Toyota yet, either, and both Audi and Toyota are seemingly committed to holding on to as many secrets as they can until March when time will run short prior to the WEC Prologue test for anyone to copy any design changes that they may make.

Even Porsche, who have released photos of their 2015 car, probably did so knowing that the "final" car might not look like that.

Audi have tested last week, but no photos or info has leaked, and Toyota tested at much the same time, and again, no photos or info leaked.

First chance to see either 2015 spec car will probably be when Audi test at Sebring in March, but other than that, we'll have to wait for the cars' public launches, which will probably be pushed back as close to the WEC Prologue test weekend as Audi and Toyota can possibly get.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Audi have tested last week, but no photos or info has leaked, and Toyota tested at much the same time, and again, no photos or info leaked.

Audi are actually supposed to be testing right now at Motorland Aragon. Today should be the last day of the scheduled four-day test that started on January 31st.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

No one's gotten their hands on photos of the 2015 Toyota yet, either, and both Audi and Toyota are seemingly committed to holding on to as many secrets as they can until March when time will run short prior to the WEC Prologue test for anyone to copy any design changes that they may make.

Even Porsche, who have released photos of their 2015 car, probably did so knowing that the "final" car might not look like that.

Audi have tested last week, but no photos or info has leaked, and Toyota tested at much the same time, and again, no photos or info leaked.

First chance to see either 2015 spec car will probably be when Audi test at Sebring in March, but other than that, we'll have to wait for the cars' public launches, which will probably be pushed back as close to the WEC Prologue test weekend as Audi and Toyota can possibly get.

I think this counts as our first spyshots of the Toyota from their twitter page. New numbers on the new cars. Atleast we can settle on some certain trivial facts. It has tires, white and blure livery etc.



The Audi on the otherhand.. That thing could be running a petrol engine for all we know! The Germans seem to be ruthlessly efficient in destroying all photographic evidence of this car...


Anyone of our forum members from France have a drone they can send over Motorland Aragon? Will provide compensation (for when it gets knocked out of the sky by an angry german)

[Articus]

If an Audi runs laps at Aragon, and no one outside of Audi is around to see it, did it actually test?

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Articus

If an Audi runs laps at Aragon, and no one outside of Audi is around to see it, did it actually test?

Haha good one

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Articus

If an Audi runs laps at Aragon, and no one outside of Audi is around to see it, did it actually test?

If Audi do bother to officially announce a four-day private test to the ACO-FIA under new rules that now limit the number of testing days, then I believe that it's a safe bet that they are indeed testing at Motorland Aragon.

Now, we haven't heard or seen much about Toyota testing at Motorland Aragon either

BTW, Strakka Racing were also due to test at the same venue starting from January 31st according to motorsport-total.com.

[TF110]

Wurz, Conway and Sarrazin werent at the TMS conference because the ongoing testing. Thats also why the rumors of JEV Kobayashi and Beche popped up. Lotterer wasnt there either! You can probably make a safe conclusion he was or is testing, which explains his absence.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

Wurz, Conway and Sarrazin werent at the TMS conference because the ongoing testing. Thats also why the rumors of JEV Kobayashi and Beche popped up. Lotterer wasnt there either! You can probably make a safe conclusion he was or is testing, which explains his absence.

Note that JEV, Kobayashi and Beche are rumoured to have tested the 2014 TS040, while the 2015 TS040 was understandably in the hands of the factory drivers (source: AutoHebdo).

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by Articus

Anyone of our forum members from France have a drone they can send over Motorland Aragon? Will provide compensation (for when it gets knocked out of the sky by an angry german)

You wand to send frenchie drones into Spain to spy on the germans? That sounds like a really bad espionage novel

Originally Posted by TF110

Wurz, Conway and Sarrazin werent at the TMS conference because the ongoing testing. Thats also why the rumors of JEV Kobayashi and Beche popped up. Lotterer wasnt there either! You can probably make a safe conclusion he was or is testing, which explains his absence.

It would've been weird to see Lotterer in a Toyota press conference even if he wasn't testing.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by DistortedSmile

You wand to send frenchie drones into Spain to spy on the germans? That sounds like a really bad espionage novel


It would've been weird to see Lotterer in a Toyota press conference even if he wasn't testing.

[CTD]

Side note: Remember that this is the Audi LMP1 thread, and not Toyota

[Starfish Primer]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

If Audi do bother to officially announce a four-day private test to the ACO-FIA under new rules that now limit the number of testing days, then I believe that it's a safe bet that they are indeed testing at Motorland Aragon.

Now, we haven't heard or seen much about Toyota testing at Motorland Aragon either

BTW, Strakka Racing were also due to test at the same venue starting from January 31st according to motorsport-total.com.

Winter came to Spain and nearly all the north is covered with snow. There are reports of motorsport testing being cancelled:

http://www.lacomarca.net/territorio-...os-sin-colegio

En Motorland se han suspendido los entrenamientos de automovilismo previstos y se reanudarán este jueves.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

Winter came to Spain and nearly all the north is covered with snow. There are reports of motorsport testing being cancelled:

http://www.lacomarca.net/territorio-...os-sin-colegio

BTW, Ben posted this on Instagram yesterday. Hope they at least had some decent running before the snow arrived

[chernaudi]

Now Audi are bringing their own pace cars to their tests?

At least Audi have more tests (announced and otherwise) before Sebring in a month's time.

Also, there's been photos of posted of the track at LM as well as photos of Spa being buried under snow, so I'd have to say that Audi probably aren't alone in having to postpone European-based tests.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Also, there's been photos of posted of the track at LM as well as photos of Spa being buried under snow, so I'd have to say that Audi probably aren't alone in having to postpone European-based tests.

You're saying this isn't the best place to go for some aero testing? And bah Sebring bumps, this is the real deal